Why is God powerful?

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Re: godfather connection

Post by fluffy bunny » 02 Aug 2007

alladin wrote:Maybe in our personal transformation.
Do you think people have really changed and do really change? I think it is remarkably the opposite. How much like themselves they remain even after 20, 30 ... 65 years.
andrey wrote:The evidence of his power is that many people have dedicated a lot of time, money, energy in his favour. This forum itself is also a proof. If it were not him we would not be here chatting.
No, this forum was here to help ex-BKs and friends and family of BKs to educate and sort themselves out after being messed up by the BKWSU.

The PBKs only came along because they were welcomed as ex-BKs who had also suffered under the BKWSU and because they are not allowed their own forum. Arjun's virtuous and non-confrontation behavior paved the way for the rest of you but there is still a little bit of tension between what you want and what the rest of are doing. But it is accepted as the benefits, e.g. discovering element of the truth hidden by the BKWSU, outweigh the disadvantages.

You are here because we need an approximate example of how crazy BK really is!

Your greatest virtue is that you are largely true to yourself and honest.

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Post by john » 02 Aug 2007

andrey wrote:It means that in Paramdham the Supreme Soul Shiva resides in thoughtless stage, but even when he comes in the body the stage is the same.
OK, but what does that mean? It is said in Murli, "I have the thought to come and save everybody".

What is the thoughtless stage?

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Post by andrey » 02 Aug 2007

Knowledgeful stage free from worry. He knows past, present, future in a way that he does not wondering what will happen, or will it happen.

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Post by john » 02 Aug 2007

andrey wrote:Knowledgeful stage free from worry. He knows past, present, future in a way that he does not wondering what will happen, or will it happen.
Without wishing to be pedantic, surely they are still thoughts?

Does it mean new thoughts? Or does it mean Shiva doesn't have to think things through like we humans do(well some of us do). Maybe the Hindu definition of thoughts and the English one is different?

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Post by paulkershaw » 02 Aug 2007

andrey wrote:It means that in Paramdham the Supreme Soul Shiva resides in thoughtless stage, but even when he comes in the body the stage is the same.
Its probably a language thing - Andrey probably means to say "beyond thought" which if I remember correctly is the 'official' Bk teaching of Paramdham. In my opinion, the invoked entity needs a thought or two in order to speak at any rate. And if the thoughts are in Hindi, then that's what we'll hear too ...

If any being is pulled into this dimension, which is a realm of thought, sound and action (BK teachings) then they'd have to also experience all three aspects too.

We already know that 'ShivBaba' comes into action (goes walkabout) and certainly hears sound (but may not like the noise), so no reason why He/She won't have thoughts too. Even if they're focussed on the Now/the Present.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 02 Aug 2007

Its all just malleable mud, really. is not it? I am thinking along the lines of that it is not "God than made humankind in his image" but "humankind (or in this case "Hindikind") that makes God in their image".

Personally, I am sick of both Middle Eastern and Hindu tribal gods. The former so full of warring and anger, the latter so slippery and tricky ... and nothing if not psychedelic. I am thinking about Krishna primarly here so, within the BK model, we can blame the BKs for their infatuations with Lekhraj Kirpalani. I'd much prefer a grown up God that was honest, straight to the point, knew what he was talking about and stuck to his word. A bit of backbone.

Its interesting when you look back through history, or across geography, at how humanity creates its gods to embody its own fallibilities; like the Ancient Greeks or Yorubas with their lustful, trickster gods. My criticism of the pluralistic nature of popular Hinduism is that it had so solid reference point and is ignorant to its fluidity. No sense of Platonic Absolutes.

It may as well be summed up as; "everything is everything ... but keep the donations coming in". The BKWSU is just moving the donations from the Hindi Temple circuit, where at least they feed the poor now and again, into their real estate collection.

This is not off topic. This malleability is the BK and the BKWSU's god's strength like. To use a Taoist metaphor, bamboo yielding while the oak tree breaks or water defeating the sword. Nothing is there but "not this, not this". As soon as it is one thing, once it is the next, it is another. It is everything, anything and nothing depending on need and mood, mercurial to the point of non-existence.

This leads me to think that we are being played around with like kittens to a piece of string being dangled from some psychic realm just above us. I want a better God. Let's face it, despite all the re-marketing, in my most depress mood, I see the god of the BKWSU as a god for the uneducated lower middle classes whose marketing it targetted at romantically unsatisfied women and Patels. (Just as Krishna, and Lekhraj Kirpalani and his gems were).

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Post by john » 02 Aug 2007

paulkershaw wrote:Its probably a language thing - Andrey probably means to say "beyond thought" which if I remember correctly is the 'official' BK teaching of Paramdham. In my opinion, the invoked entity needs a thought or two in order to speak at any rate. And if the thoughts are in Hindi, then that's what we'll hear too ...
Yes, I can understand the idea of going beyond thoughts, but surely in the BrahmaBaba days there had to be some planning and thought put into it.

I mean something as simple as when the Murlis would be spoken would have to follow a plan and yet it is said Shiva does not come and go according to a plan.

I have asked the question to PBKs of how are things planned, but with no answer. I don't want to know the plans, just how are Murli clarification sessions planned. OK, if you say there is no plan, then how does anyone know when to turn up?

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Post by fluffy bunny » 02 Aug 2007

john wrote:Yes, I can understand the idea of going beyond thoughts, but surely in the BrahmaBaba days there had to be some planning and thought put into it.
You could also ask, when did the Shankar element enter into Gyan. (Not Shankar Puri ... but that is also a fair question). Shankar being the silent yogi versus Krishna and Vishnu.

The only silence we receive is to the contradictory questions.

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Post by mr green » 02 Aug 2007

andrey wrote:Thoughts are more powerful than words and actions. Will you call someone who works a lot through the body to perform a task powerful, or someone who can make the same task happen only through words, or one who can do only through the power of mind. That's why he is authority. He may be thougthless, but is is also a powerful stage of the mind. Mind is there but it is as if it is not there.

The evidence of his power is that many people have dedicated a lot of time, money, energy in his favour. This forum itself is also a proof. If it were not him we would not be here chatting. His power is in his unique ability to change old into new.
My Dearest Idiot

I did not mean I wanted the idea of whether thoughts or actions are more powerful, even though I disagree with you on this heheheh, the road to hell and all that ...

I meant (the same as you) I do not know how gods state of being is, no one knows and furthermore no one even knows if he excists, nothing in fact has progressed any further than faith or belief.

You lot spout on this idea and this opinion of the Murli when in fact none of you KNOW f8ck all about God or where he resides or what he does. It is all bullsh** or to put it nicely speculation. All of you who takes this stuff seriously are still 100% on the path of Bhakti ... it is all blind faith ... if I am wrong prove it otherwise don't waste my time even trying to answer.

This website is not proof of anything other than people like showing off their opinions about some story an Indian man made up ...

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Post by arjun » 02 Aug 2007

John wrote:I mean something as simple as when the Murlis would be spoken would have to follow a plan and yet it is said Shiva does not come and go according to a plan. I have asked the question to PBKs of how are things planned, but with no answer. I don't want to know the plans, just how are Murli clarification sessions planned. OK, if you say there is no plan, then how does anyone know when to turn up?
Om Shanti. I think I have answered this question in detail in some other thread possiby in the PBK section long ago.

Generally ShivBaba (through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) comes to any Gita pathshala/mini-Madhubans at the time when the regular class of that Gitapathshala/mini-Madhubans is supposed to take place (either the daily class/weekly class/monthly class). Since PBKs come to such classes regularly, they need not be informed about Baba's programme. But if the class is to be organised at any other time (i.e. other than the timings of the regular class), then the PBKs are informed a few minutes or hours in advance to attend the class. ShivBaba (through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) has met small groups of PBKs (mostly new ones, who have undergone bhatti but haven't met Baba) in public gardens also and even takes drishti, Murli and discussion classes in open, which are also recorded in video form.

The difficulty is that whenever such questions are answered, they get lost in the ocean of threads, where it is difficult for a member (especially newcomers) to get the required information. That is why I wish to request everyone that whenever you feel that a particular question related to PBKs can be of some informative value to others also, then you can ask such question in the sticky thread in the PBK section.

Alternatively, any such Q&A (which could have been answered by me or any other PBK) can be copied and pasted in that thread for future reference. I know that PBKs may be apprehensive about doing such things as they may not be sure if the answer given by me is correct or approved by Baba or not. Therefore I would leave it to their choice.

Due to lack of time, besides my lokik and alokik responsibilities, it is becoming difficult day by day for me to keep track of all the threads. So, there is every possibility that questions which I can answer may go unnoticed by me and other members may think that PBKs do not have answer for that question. Sometimes, even if I notice some questions for which I have answer, I cannot post the answer or postpone it due to lack of time. Hence, it would be better if such general questions related to PBKs are asked in the above thread. All such help would be highly appreciated.

Thanks,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by malachiel » 03 Aug 2007

I disagree with what Ex-I said.

I entered BK life because I was in search of God. BKWSU is a business revolving around the idea that God exists. Even if it was a tool for propaganda, it did work and it's still working. We are here because we left an organization that is defining humans and God in its practices. We are here partially because of God.

That is one of His powers; we don't know for certain that He is or that He is not. That power is based on the unconscious assertion that is made about the "unknown" having to be feared. Humans don't fear anything more than they fear the "unknown" (you caught me here again, I state some common psychology :D ). And in that light, He is Mighty.

Admitting that I don't know, and staying THERE, that's just plain too much to ask from me. I HAVE to know. Because the general feeling I get around me, whether it's on this forum or elsewhere is, "hey, you don't know about God? You should! Everybody knows about God! Don't you believe in something?". Even when you are atheist, they don't bother you BECAUSE you believe in NOTHING. From this perspective, faith, and lack of faith, is also something that "defines" humanity. It defines what you can or cannot do with a human being. if you prefer, it goes back to the idea of whether or not we hold something for "sacred".

The idea of God, or divinity, or sacredness is powerful because it regulates our daily exchanges. Even if it is challenged, this possibility has enabled us to protect things we hold dear like; water, nature, freedom, or to attack others on the same principle.

God is powerful because He/She/It is unproven and undefined. Just like cash but without a currency or equivalence, free to be used by anyone who's convincing, charismatic enough to make you buy it.

Either you give it a definition yourself, either you follow someone else's definition with minor adjustments (like Bk re-writing), or you ignore it and live without it. In all cases, we are affected because we interact with each others. Saying the contrary would be like living in Beijing and saying, "I don't care about Chinese."

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Post by fluffy bunny » 03 Aug 2007

malachiel wrote:I disagree with what Ex-I said.
Which bit?
God is powerful
God or the concept of God? Do you accept the BK god is "The" God?

I cant remember if I said it but, given all the head knocking they cause, I sure am sick of the Middle Eastern Gods ... and I believe that what India needs is not more god and religion but more plumbers and sanitary engineers.

One of the concepts that grew out of the 20th Century European thought, was the belief in an ultimately powerful being in religion impinged on human autonomy and made us subject to something higher than ourselves. This caused us to further accept a hierarchical status quo ... caste or class in otherwords. Our position in a society the ruling classes, who own the church or temple. It was merely a justification of the oppression by the powerful in society or the poor.

This is just as true in India. The Bhagavad Gita is a re-write attempting to juggle the power balance between the Bramins and Kshatriyas and encourage the working classes to accept their power because of the "divine rights" ascribed to both priest and kings. Mostly by themselves after battles, naturally.

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Re: godfather connection

Post by malachiel » 03 Aug 2007

ex-l wrote:No, this forum was here to help ex-BKs and friends and family of BKs to educate and sort themselves out after being messed up by the BKWSU.
That was what I did not agree on. Please read my previous answer for the reasons why.
God or the concept of God? Do you accept the BK god is "The" God?
Again, I have answered that in my last post. :D The part about God being like cash. Wonder what people think about that one. It felt really cold and sad to pretend that G-d is like tofu, you need the right seasoning to eat it ...
One of the concepts that grew out of the 20th Century European thought, was the belief in an ultimately powerful being in religion impinged on human autonomy and made us subject to something higher than ourselves. This caused us to further accept a hierarchical status quo ... caste or class in otherwords. Our position in a society the ruling classes, who own the church or temple. It was merely a justification of the oppression by the powerful in society or the poor.
Absolutely agree on this. Before, God or gods were percieved as powerful (more than humans), but not "allpowerful". That idea is recent, and I believe was created to handle the need for religious business. They were perceived as "rulers" of humans, rather than fulfillers of wishes: there were specific deities (sub-deities like angels) for that, and even they are limited in their actions.

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Post by zhuk » 04 Aug 2007

mr green wrote:Is it healthy to have an answer for everything?
Actually, I would more likely see the deep psychological requirement to have all the answers laid out for you by Big Daddy and the 100% certainty that goes with that more unhealthy, if anything ;).
malachiel wrote:Admitting that I don't know, and staying THERE, that's just plain too much to ask from me. I HAVE to know. Because the general feeling I get around me, whether it's on this forum or elsewhere is, "hey, you don't know about God? You should! Everybody knows about God! Don't you believe in something?". Even when you are atheist, they don't bother you BECAUSE you believe in NOTHING. From this perspective, faith, and lack of faith, is also something that "defines" humanity. It defines what you can or cannot do with a human being. if you prefer, it goes back to the idea of whether or not we hold something for "sacred".
Well, not EVERYONE is like that.

I freely admit I don't know, will never know, INDEED *CAN NEVER* KNOW whether god doesn't/does not exist. For me, its a pointless argument; and I feel no disconfort whatsoever from that uncertainty. I have no need to have all my questions blithely answered.

Quite content staying there.

Rather, its almost a feeling of liberation just to consider than we puny humans on our little ball of rock in the vast cosmos cannot ever know these things ... in fact, its both a humbling & awe-inspiring feeling that doesn't rely on a concept of any deity :).

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Post by fluffy bunny » 04 Aug 2007

zhuk wrote:Rather, its almost a feeling of liberation just to consider than we puny humans on our little ball of rock in the vast cosmos cannot ever know these things ... in fact, its both a humbling & awe-inspiring feeling that doesn't rely on a concept of any deity :).
So the answer is, "Why is God so Powerful?" ... because most people have not looked through a telescope yet.

I think that you are right. Not only is it our little ball of rock, it is a little skin of a few hundred feet high around that little ball of rock ... how noisy it is with all this thought and debate. Gods fighting over our minds to control us. I am starting to believe that we are going to discover that we are not at the top of the foodchain as we thought and that another species of psychic predators lives off the minds of human beings.

Come back David Icke, all is forgiven ...

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