Sex, Sexuality and Relationships within the BKWSU or PBKs

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howiemac
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Sex, Sexuality and Relationships within the BKWSU or PBKs

Post by howiemac » 28 Jun 2006

Before encountering the BKs, it had never crossed my mind that having close relationships with my fellow human beings could be considered detrimental. Then the BKs trained me into thinking that physical relationships were damaging - in particular for the attachment that results, and the resulting jealousy and fear of loss. They said that having a special relationship with one "significant other" gets in the way of spiritual progress - that person comes between you and God - your mind goes first to them and God is forgotten... maybe...

Having accepted that, and having renounced physical relationships - and having become, in my own mind, married to God, so that God was now my lover, and 'significant other', I thought things were looking promising. Now I was able to have close friendships with a number of others, female and male, who were equally committed to God and to chastity, and we could leave behind the courtship games, and the possessive jealousies, encountered in the past, when everyone paired off with each other ... I felt I was experiencing an new, pure, simple, and joyous way to exist with fellow humans - albeit it only seemed to work within the confines of the BKWSU, and only with some of them ... nevertheless it felt liberating and exhilarating.

I imagined a setup whereby we could each be close to several others, with strong bonds of love and friendship, provided each of us maintained a primary and stronger bond with God - we would each take love from God and share it with each other. There was no longer any place or role for jealousy or dependance, no place for fear of loss - God was not going anywhere, and God would never ditch any of us. I perceived the dawning of a beautiful New Age of love and friendship, shared joy and peace. But then the 'teachers' took me to the next stages. It emerged that there were other relationships which had to be renounced too - no more mother, no more Father, no more children, no more friends - all of these were apparently damaging and would take you away from God? Eh?

Well I was hanged if I was ditching my parents, especially as I had just reached a reconciliation with them after working out 40 years worths of accumulated differences... my new spiritual virtue-based perspective on life had enabled me to build bridges for the first time in my life - I was damned if I was going to blow up these brand new bridges. For the first time I started to seriously question what the BKs were telling me (over and over day after day, like dripping taps ...)

I had no children, so no issue there, but ditch my friends? Turn my back on the very people who had held me together my whole adult life, talking me through emotional nightmares, providing loving support and a great deal of entertainment - giving me shelter and feeding me when i was down on my luck... the list went on and on.. turn my back on these special people? Why?

"You are coloured by the company you keep"

So - should I turn my back on people who had been the practical embodiment of virtue towards me - through thick and thin - over many years - and through many experiences? OK so they sometimes drank alcohol, one or two even took mild recreational drugs at times, some of them ate meat ... maybe they would lead me back to carnivorous debauchery? Maybe their apparent virtue was a sham - maybe their loving friendship was a mask concealing sinister selfish motives? And maybe the cold aloofness, narrow mindedness, prudishness, and strict judgemental conservatism, of the BK people who were most vociferous in insisting I leave these friends behind, was also a sham concealing spiritual gems - loving and benevolent 'good company' ... maybe.. but I decided to stick with my friends.. better the devils you know ...

I had to find myself a compromise position - married to God, but not to the BKs - loyal to my old friends and to my family - I had to develop a split personality - a mask to wear when at the BK centre, where I was increasingly expected to turn out in conservative and immaculately pressed and spotlessly clean clothing, keeping quiet about the people I visited when away from the centre, so as to avoid arguments and conflict, and so as to avoid undue pressure being put on me to conform to the rigid dogma "no relationships of any sort, except brother and sister"

OK - so I was still allowed to have brothers and sisters... I had long seen my friends as brothers and sisters anyway... so the compromise was not too difficult ... but as time went on more restrictions became increasingly apparent. I was not allowed to touch my brothers, far less my sisters... no hugging - even handshakes were awkward and discouraged ... But what about all these old photographs of Brahma Baba and the original brothers and sisters all hugging each other? No sensible answers were provided... but just try hugging any BK and see the look of horror, revulsion, even fear on their face.... What was this all about????

Never mind - I could still hug my friends, my parents, my real sisters, so never mind about the cardboard BK sisters and brothers.... Meanwhile God was telling me through the Murlis that I should love all my fellow men when "coming into relationship and connection with them"... so I proceeded to work on that aim, outwith the BKs.

The BK teachers revealed more strictures - it was 'inappropriate' for brothers to eat at the same table as sisters... 'innappropriate' to sleep in the same building... 'innappropriate to go for walks or outings together'...no wonder so many BKs were gay... I noticed with great relief that at BK command central in Madhuban, all of these 'innappropriate' activities were indulged in by the visiting BKs en mass.. clearly the rules were stricter in Britain (good old Victorian prudishness ...)

More new regulations appeared.. it was 'innappropriate' and 'wasteful' for brothers and/or sisters to have 'long conversations' ... Now hang on - wait a minute - I am not to have a discussion with my brother or my sister, not to show any form of affection (even spoken it seems), not to socialise with anyone in any circumstance... no friendship, no companionship, no meaningful interaction with other souls in any form whatsoever, or a jealous God would mark me down in my end of term exam ... Hang on a minute.... what am i doing here? Where's the door ...

Breathe deeply ... fresh air at last ... just as well i never ditched those friends eh? or my parents ... so I still have places to go, people to share the joys and experiences of life with other souls to touch and be touched by ... bliss. So beware - this is a cautionary tale - don't exchange your support network of friends and family for BK pie in the Golden Age. The BKs frown on friendship. They see companionship as a sin, affection as a weakness that should not be displayed in any circumstances ... theirs is a cold harsh inhuman place. Don't go there.

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Role of Woman

Post by atma » 20 Aug 2006

Bhai's,

One aspect that attracted me to the bk Knowledge at the beginning was how woman where respected and given importance.

This of course is very much different then the way many are treated in the lokik world (or other religions) now. Especially in India, where it is known that many woman abort their children using tests to know if they are to be born as a female while keeping the male child alive.

Woman are still thought to be weak and of little or no use other then cooking and child bearing. So I can see why the Yagya may have raised alot of eyebrows at the beginning when Brahma put them in such positions and the courage and strength they showed. Standing up to the men. I am sure there where alot of very angry males. A very tough pill to swallow for the male ego. Even now Baba Virendra Dev Dixit has the mothers holding such important tasks. I met so many wonderful Mothers who treated me like there child and brother. It was very unique to experience this. It was very pure.

The purity of a mother cannnot be compared to a males that is why they are the ones to open the gates of heaven.

atma

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Post by mitra » 31 Aug 2006

:wink: Happy to hear your story

After reading it all , I feel that if we keep a balance of LOVE and LAW, everything becomes easy. But keeping that balance is really an ART

IBHS
MITRA 8)

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Sex, Sexuality and Marriage within the BKWSU or PBKs

Post by arjun » 04 Sep 2006

ex-l wrote:I don't know. PBKs, what is Veerendra Dev Dixit advice on living close to or with a centre? I think Baba does strongly. He is always criticising the Sanyasis, saying this is a household path, and sure that must been the Brahmin [BK and PBK] Sanyasis, is not it?
Om Shanti. I was out of town for a few days and hence could not catch up with the progress in discussions on this forum. I came to know some interesting anecdotes from some PBK mothers while travelling with them in a car from one town to another. I will relate the same when there is a discussion on such topics.

Anyways, as regards your above observations I would like to say that ShivBaba (through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) does lay a great importance on the gatherings (sangathan) and classes. In the Advance Party, we don't have Centers like BK Centers, but we do have mini-Madhubans and gitapathshalaas where the PBKs are supposed to gather and practice collective meditation, listen to Baba's Murli (as contained in the vcds and discussion cds) and discuss Godly service plans. Baba also lays a great emphasis on the regularity/attendance. Even if someone attends a class once in a week, one should be regular at it. And if someone is living near the Gitapathshala/mini-Madhubans, they should endeavour to attend the classes daily.

To exemplify the benefits of gatherings, He gives the examples of Muslims, who also lay a great emphasis on collective namaz. The intellect of the Muslims from all over the world is focussed on Mecca/Medina/Kaba. They have been able to accomplish many tasks (whether positive or negative) in the world due to this unity.

Baba also gives a lot of importance to the household path. That is the reason why the number of mini-Madhubans is negligible when compared to the number of gitapathshalas in the Advance Party. Even among the mini-Madhubans, except the Delhi Headquarters, all other mini-Madhubans are being run in the houses owned by the PBKs.

As regards the criticism of Sanyasis, it is the sanyasis within the Brahmin world (mostly the BKs) because the BK sisters do not have the sustenance of spiritual mother and Father in the form of Mama and Baba since 1969. And in many BK centers the sisters live alone. Although there may be seeds of these sanyasis among the PBKs also, but the PBK sisters living in the mini-Madhubans of Advance Party cannot be compared with the BK sanyasis because here we have the sustenance of spiritual mother and Father. And even in the mini-Madhubans the sisters live with married mothers, and wear even coloured clothes.
With regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by atma » 04 Sep 2006

Bhai,

Thanks I look forward to the response once you receive it. The sisters whom are living with married mothers are the husbuands also in the knowledge? Or are there cases when they are not?

atma

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Post by arjun » 06 Sep 2006

Atma Bhai wrote:The Sisters whom are living with married mothers are the husbuands also in the knowledge? Or are there cases when they are not?
The husbands of the married women PBKs who stay with the unmarried PBK sisters at the mini-Madhubans could also be in knowledge. If they are in knowledge, their wives, i.e. the PBK mothers generally stay at the mini-Madhubans for short/long periods (according to their convenience) so that their family life does not get disturbed. If the husbands are not in the path of knowledge, then the PBK mothers generally require to obtain written permission from their husbands. Some of the mothers are widowed. In such cases, they are totally free to devote their life to Godly service as per their own wishes.

The PBK mothers staying/doing service at the mini-Madhubans for short/long periods play an important role because the PBK sisters generally venture out of the mini-Madhubans only in the company of the PBK mothers. Even within the mini-Madhubans, they generally meet PBK brothers/strangers (males) in the presence of PBK mothers only. This arrangement is made only to ensure that their purity is safeguarded. In the Indian society, the vision of males towards a virgin generally does not get polluted if she is in the company of a married woman.

Even in the non-BK Indian society virgins are generally not allowed to meet strangers at home without the presence of her family members. Of course, there may be exceptions in many of the modern Indian metropolitans, where a lot of girls venture out alone for studies and jobs, but the general trend is what I have described above. I don't know to what extent the virgins are allowed freedom in foreign countries. I am certain that modern unmarried women from Western countries would find these traditions a bit unacceptable. But in such circumstances/societies where women are only considered to be objects of pleasure by many men, the above rules/traditions become necessary to protect their purity.
With regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by atma » 06 Sep 2006

Bhai Arjuna,

Thanks for the reply. Is it also true that there are many pbk males whose wives are not in knowledge also?

atma

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Sex

Post by fluffy bunny » 09 Sep 2006

Even in the non-BK Indian society virgins are generally not allowed to meet strangers at home without the presence of her family members. Of course, there may be exceptions in many of the modern Indian metropolitans, where a lot of girls venture out alone for studies and jobs, but the general trend is what I have described above. I don't know to what extent the virgins are allowed freedom in foreign countries. I am certain that modern unmarried women from Western countries would find these traditions a bit unacceptable. But in such circumstances/societies where women are only considered to be objects of pleasure by many men, the above rules/traditions become necessary to protect their purity.
In the UK, for an example, nearly half of those aged 16 to 24 have had at least five sexual partners with 1/3 of them losing their virginity before the age of 16. If Kunyas means sexual virgins rather than unmarried women, you would be hard pressed to find any virgins at all and more of those would just be too unattractive rather than too religious. Interestingly enough, in more developed parts of the country, e.g. London, the ages at which virginity is lost is higher than in the undeveloped areas. Some Christian groups still encourage no sex before marriage but they are not successful. The age of sexual consent - when an individual can do what they want - in Europe is; France: 15, Germany, UK & Ireland: 16, Italy: 14, Portugal: 14/16.

Women are just as likely to see men as objects of pleasure as men are women. There is basically no stigma left over sex before marriage except amongst uneducated, [i.e. recent immigrant] or fundimentalist religious groups.

Indeed, sex before marriage is encouraged and accepted for both sexes. Women are pretty much at complete liberty to do what they want and explore all aspects of sex including female homosexuality. This is true, perhaps even more true, amongst higher "castes" for whom more opportunities exits. More than 50% of the same group above will have had sex at a first meeting with someone else. I do not know how others see it, but in my opinion, sex has become a social activity more like sport or games. Society has become hugely sexualised, sex is big business and has entered and is constant in every activity via advertising, movies and television. Nudity and rapture are broadcast into every home and watched by families several times a night on TV.

Even amongst fundimentalist religious groups there is lots of sexual hypocrisy. I live between Bangladeshi and Hassidic Jewish areas. Both the older "strict" Muslims and Jews are using white prostitutes. In the case of the Bangladeshis, the old men even have transexual prostitutes; in the case of the Hassidics, even homosexuality between rabbis and boys has been revealled. The young Bengali men chase white girlfriends for sex whilst expecting their women to stay pure. Rich Arabs come especially to London to sleep with expensive white prostitutes. None of this is considered real sex though and it is condemned, where youthful exploration of bodies is defended. In my opinion, it is probably better to have happy, honest sex with someone else that wants to than express such preversions due to religious supression ... but I am open to other opinions. It is not difficult to find an equal that wants to.

Within the Hindi communities, the usual double standards apply the men going off to foreign countries to do so - even amongst BK supporting Hindus. But I think that in general they are becoming more relaxed, secular and western, e.g. boyfriends for the young girls and divorce for the mature women. Either the West has won or it is the most wonderful brothel for all ... as "Baba says". However, sexual liberation has reduced sexual exploitation, especially of child and teenage prostitutes of which their used to be 1,000s in the same area as above in Victorian Times.

I feel sorry for the young girls in developing nations whose bodies and emotions are owned and supressed by the parents who are often far less enlightened than their children. especially the girl childs in India sold into prostition. But I realise that in traditional societies it is probably better to lock up your daughters due to the out of control male exploitation, violence and backlash. Can one jump from Bhakti suppression to Brahmin purity without exploring the full cycle of experience ... ? In the West, we have a strong Romantic tradition, "love Bhakti", that goes back to the 11th century; but most of this change came about during the 1960s.

I think it is an important subject to discuss honestly. Interesting questions to ask are; how bad is sex really? And why? What damage does it do and how? Does India have a concept of, and is it capable of exploring, "good sex" 2,000 years after the Kamasutram?

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Post by atma » 09 Sep 2006

Bhai ex-l,

I agree from my experiences in the West a large portion of woman tend to have a stronger desire for sex. Many woman are the cause of divorces because they are not faithful to there husbands. This is in the culture i.e. tv, magazines, it is more acceptable.

But West is West and East is East. Shiva has come to Bharat (India) for a reason and mainly for the respect of purity. Which is a very deep topic. I cannot speak on behalf of my experience in India, for it was a brief one, but there certainly is a difference in the way woman dress compared to the West.

atma

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Post by fluffy bunny » 09 Sep 2006

atma wrote:But West is West and East is East. Shiva has come to Bharat (India) for a reason and mainly for the respect of purity.
Thank you for accepting this is a deep issue.

But can you honestly say that India's attitude is entirely to do with "purity", or is it not wrapped up in the protection of the woman-child as the family's financial responsibility and the men's "property"?

I think the subject of celibacy, or Brahmacharya, is very deep and only part of the greater picture, e.g. an individual could be sexually inactive but still not following Brahmacharya. A BK could be practising physical purity but be cold, mean and nasty to others. What do they achieve?

Quickly told, there is a story in Bhakti of two brothers. One who goes off to a prostitute and the other goes off to the temple. The one in the temple is sitting thinking bad things about the other one in the brothel all the time condeming him; and the one in the brothel is thinking of the one in the temple and how good he is. The guru asks, which one is receiving the most benefit? And his answer is the one in the brothel ... because his mind is in the temple whereas the brother in the temple is thinking the opposite!

I am sure that you understand the principle. Not "Gyan" as such, but I do not see that it contradicts Gyan. From an Advanced point of view, Bharat is the temple and the West is the brothel.

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Post by atma » 09 Sep 2006

Bhai ex-l.

India is far from pure and you can see this in the treatment of woman and I agree on the importance of one's thoughts as well but India still holds the respect for purity more then other countries, certainly here in the Americas.

At my local bk center it was a difficult thing for a bk sister to understand. How I could be in a room with another sister and not have lustful thoughts. This sister did not think it was possible. I told her it was and she still did not believe. She even scolded the other sister.

Baba (Virendra Dev Dixit) has touched on this in some of the VCD's and out of respect for him I don't remember the exact words to type here.

atma

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pbk forum

Post by bindi » 19 Oct 2006

Sex is regarded as "bad" now only because it is done using the 'brasht inderia' rather than the 'sraisht inderia'. Baba has also explained that we lose power when we have sex now and many of us who have experienced sex know this only too well! :!:

As many are also probably aware that baba has said that a Kumar who stays a Kumar can do a lot if he stays a Kumar however otherwise this one thing overtakes everything. I know I have used baba says and have not put them in quotation marks because they are not word for word Murli points but the essence is there. :!:

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Post by john » 19 Oct 2006

Bindi wrote:ex is regarded as "bad" now only because it is done using the 'brasht inderia' rather than the 'sraisht inderia'
Can you explain what the words 'brasht' and 'srasht inderia' mean and give an English translation?

Thanks

John

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Post by fluffy bunny » 19 Oct 2006

atma wrote:At my local BK center it was a difficult thing for a BK Sister to understand. How I could be in a room with another Sister and not have lustful thoughts. This Sister did not think it was possible.
It is kind of funny in a way. But sad and dangerous in another if this is the mind set of the sisters. I wonder if that is what they are taught?

Do they never have lustful thoughts? Or does it arise in a different manner, such as attachment or affection? Although I understand that if you are have good meditation for long enough thoughts do not come, but I would have thought it biologically impossible for them not too.

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Post by bansy » 19 Oct 2006

In Raja Yoga terms, has anyone actually asked or found out or understood what makes a "lustful thought" ?

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