Sex, Sexuality and Relationships within the BKWSU or PBKs

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Sex, Sexuality, Marriage and the BKWSU

Post by fluffy bunny » 15 Nov 2006

bansy wrote:Children and marriage are issues of a high standard ... Most of these Brothers are poor that they have no where else to go but to stay on. However, the irony for them is Baba becomes their only salvation from their suffering
I am glad that you brought up this issue, it is one that I wanted to retun back to some time.

Marriage and Gyan, families and BKs ... it raises a very serious issues.

Of course there are the usual hypocrisies; high profile BKs that get sick with the stress of it all but then have to go back to the lokik/physical family to be looked after etc., but what I would like to ask is how fair and realistic is the expectation of the BKWSU for BKs to "die alive" and cut off physically and emotionally from their lokik families in the way that they are encouraged?

Fine, in the old days when Lekhraj Kirpalani had the money to support the Yugya in their palace, fine is the developed nations where there are pension funds and welfare states but what about now and what about in developing nations where there is nothing but family to depend upon for welfare when you become old and/or sick?

The BKWSU demands that you burn your bridge with your "impure" family and surrender your mind. body and wealth to the "pure" spiritual BK family. All the social efforts going into binding with BKs, BK service and the BKWSU coffers. But what will happen when you get old and sick, who will look after you then? Not every one is going to get the 5 star treatment Janki Kirpalani and Kumarka are getting.

And say you are a poor Indian living in a village, loving Baba, going to your local Gitapathshala. You give up love and sex, binding with the other ordinary human beings in your village. You become the celibate server. You give up having any family of your own, you get old, and then older ... who is going to look after?

This is not just a reality for Indian villagers. It is just as true in societies such as Africa, China, Japan, South or even North America where families are what human beings depend on. Having families to tend the land, to feed the family, to look after the old and sick.

What does the BKWSU offer in comparison ... an ever retreating Destruction to clear away all your worries. Don't worry about being old, don't worry about being sick ... the whole world is going to die in 1976 ... 86 ... 2000 ... next January ... Its really serious. Individuals are being walked to the end of a diving board blindfolded.

Now, any scam like this is a sort of a number game. A small number receive the benefits and are held up as a promise for the many ... you too could be a Dadi Janki if you make efforts ... Such systems depends on newcomers keeping coming in to flush the numbers as the tired or desparate leave and fill the coffers. The original Yugya members are well set in their position, do we see anyone else being accepted.

Of course, we do not know what will happen. May be the End of the World will come and save us/them. Have the BKWSU manifestly developed any financial policy to take care of the old and sick that they have encouraged to give up their lives, families and money? Are their any BK old folks homes yet? I don't know. I do know of older BKs in the West going, being dumped in my opinion, into sheltered care homes outside of the BK system. I am thinking about original BKs that carried the burden of the Yugya in its childhood days of World Service when there were no trendy benefit and high powered PR campaigns.

But ... that is all of their karmas I guess is the response. I suppose the Kirpalani Klan just have better karma than the rest of us/BKs?

But, those in the West are the lucky ones. It is their Karma to have been born in a society that has welfare states and is dispassionate enough to ditch the old folk in care homes. To my mind, it underlines a seemingly financially parasitic relationship the organization has with the impure Kali Yugi societies it operates within, e.g. we take your time and money when you are strong but you go back to Shudra society when you are weak.

But, let us return once again the little old men and ladies, the middle age women in the villages that back up the backbone of Baba's Yagya ... who is thinking of them and their lot? Is Madhuban not just another gated and guarded detached community like the rich in America are criticized for living in? I wonder on who and when the gates with shut and the armed guards will turn? Of course, such quite conscious social pressures are useful for keep the lower class BK Brahmins in obedient order ... never mind the "Jam tomorrow" promises of Golden Palaces in Heaven. A bowl of rice a day and a mat to lie on would be quite a good offer to an old villager with no family. Are they even getting that?

I don't know much about the grassroots in India. Anyone care to comment? Its not just a grassroot thing, as I say even folks in countries in the Far East like Japan, where families are still important, must be suffering. But then ... it is there karma so don't worry too much.

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Post by bansy » 16 Nov 2006

(This is a reply to some issues raised in the ex-communication thread)

Children and marriage are issues of a high standard.

Baba says to remember Him only (alright, this is not always as easy to do but efforts are being made I hope by most sincere Brahmins), but to marry means to have someone else pull you away from Baba. Broken the first Shrimat.

However, if you are married before becoming a BK or already have children before becoming a BK, then you have already settled in a relationship and to be introduced to Baba should only enhance the relationships within your own family, and should this your own lokik family become alokik too, then that is a high reward (at least from what I understand from Gyan). So marriage or children before coming into Gyan is acceptable. Thereafter, you may split from your family, in which case you have decided to dedicate yourself to Baba before any other soul, and although this splitting may have so-called karmic percussions, you are dealing with this in your new spiritual birth, so this is also acceptable.

I suppose one reason/excuse a (P)BK Kumar and a (P)BK Kumaris may wish to be together is to save costs, but to co-habit together is taboo, and solving it by marriage hasn't made it any less taboo. Thus I just don't know how any (P)BK soul, after marrying or having children, can lift her or his head up again amongst the Brothers and Sisters at the centre after gaining their trust. Or even allowed to go back to the centre. Yes, it's up to oneself to make it up to Father Shiva but your own self respect has just gone down the drain. What does ShivBaba (Veerendra Dev Dixit) say about souls that marry and/or have children after becoming PBKs ? Is this against Shrimat ?
Arjun wrote:I have only heard that even if someone wishes to return he/she has to undergo the bhatti once again.
I am surprised this is possible. How many spiritual rebirths can one have ? Let's consider the very extreme case of if any one found out that Dada Lekhraj or Veerendra Dev Dixit had after knowing Father Shiva went on to marry and further went on to have children ... shudder to continue this thought ...

Almost every Murli or Vani says "Remember Me only". Also to remove karmic bondages, not create them. This is disappointing ; following this thread, I almost feel one cannot trust a Brahmin Brother or Sister anymore ! After all, how do I know if they are married five times and have children all over the place ? All Brahmins are not like this, but it really only takes one too many to spoil the broth. Or is anyone allowed into the family again just to make up the numbers ? This really tarnishes the image of the BKWSU.

One way to get some idea of how many children are born after souls become BKs, is to ask those who attend the youth retreats.
ex-l wrote: "Baba had given a touching to make another Brahmin"
Baba can make Brahmins (mouth born, womb born), but Brahmins to make Brahmins? Loyalty to BKWSU is not the same as loyalty to Father Shiva.

Many brothers running or looking after centres (in India) often pour out their frustrations when they take home leave to see their lokik families. They also see the progress of some of their lokiks and the outside world, be it with job or families or children. Especially as opportunities grow in India in recent times. They are scared to talk about this within the centres as walls have ears. OK, they have made the spiritual choice but to live in fear. Most of these Brothers are poor that they have no where else to go but to stay on. However, the irony for them is Baba becomes their only salvation from their suffering within the BKWSU.

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Post by bansy » 16 Nov 2006

Looks like the BKs are not the only ones who have problems with members and marriage in their organisation. Celibacy is also required in the Catholic Church : http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6153452.stm

If the Vatican expect their priests not to marry, how can the BKs ?

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Post by arjun » 16 Nov 2006

Sister Bansy wrote:What does ShivBaba (Veerendra Dev Dixit) say about souls that marry and/or have children after becoming PBKs ? Is this against Shrimat ?
Om Shanti. Yes, it is against Shrimat (except the Gandharva marriage, as mentioned in the Murlis). But if someone sincerely repents his/her mistake (of having married and reproduced against the Shrimat) and wishes to come back, I think they should be accepted back into the fold, whether BK or PBK. Since there is no (spiritual/direct) parental care in the BK family, the comeback for such occassionally/temporarily failed PBKs is more strict and acceptable in the PBK family because of the presence of spiritual Father and mother in corporeal form.

We all know that it is human to err. So, if someone commits an error of this nature, then there should always be some way out for those who repent their mistakes.

There is a BK Murli point where Baba himself has mentioned about such children who attended Murli classes in spite of having indulged in sex. Baba says that such children think that if they do not attend the classes then how can they improve spiritually. I will try to quote the exact Murli point if possible.

With regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by bansy » 16 Nov 2006

Arjun wrote: Yes, it is against Shrimat (except the Gandharva marriage, as mentioned in the Murlis).
What is the Gandharva marriage ?

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Post by bansy » 16 Nov 2006

What does Shrimat mean if we are able to break them ? Especially gross forms of sins [I expect many of us still have subtle forms of sins but gross forms such as physical sex (lust), beating another soul (anger), stealing money (greed) etc] are obvious.

What does Raja Yoga mean if it is not the highest of the high ? Souls that have commited gross forms of sin after coming into Gyan, yes are still souls but not necessarily Brahmin souls it seems. Why they are still there attending classes is bewildering. Since such souls cannot introduce another soul to Gyan or Shrimat:
  • Teacher : Now, as you've completed this course there are some rules ... Amrit Vela ... traffic control ... vegetarian ... oh yes, one of them is to be celibate.
    Student : You mean no more sex from today onwards ?
    Teacher : None at all, Baba's orders.
    Student : You mean you've never done it all this time ?
    Teacher : Err ... well ... :oops:

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Re: Marriage and Gyan

Post by surya » 16 Nov 2006

I am glad that you brought up this issue, it is one that I wanted to retun back to some time.
Dear ex-l, Arjun and Bansy,

I am glad too that this issue came up! Recently I discussed this issue with a PBK brother that is in the Advance Knowledge for a very long time and his opinion was that I shouldn't stay single at all. That I should talk to Baba (Virendra Dev Dixit) about it. And he also said that there is many PBK souls "suitable" for me, but to follow Shrimat and celibacy after marriage.

This topic came up between us when I asked him who will be looking after kumars or kumaris when we get older. So since than I am wondering if this is possible or not. Because I don't wish to go to a centre and surrender like the kumars, kanyas or matas do. Does anyone knows if this is for real or not!? Or is this brother imagining things?

surya

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Post by bansy » 16 Nov 2006

surya2037 wrote:who will be looking after Kumars or Kumaris when we get older.
Does anyone knows if this is for real or not!? Or is this Brother imagining things?
Dear Brother,
It's all down to Faith. Faith in Baba. Why worry about the future, live in the present. What about the cycle, Destruction will come soon, so why worry about "getting older". Faith in the Drama. Baba is going to look after when we get older. How much older is needed ? The soul is eternal. It doesn't die ... the body dies. So Faith in Self. However, will the others be around to help anyway. Faith in the Family. But back to ... what is real ... Faith is what makes things real. So what is Faith ? or rather, how much Faith, and whose Faith ?

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Post by john » 16 Nov 2006

But if someone sincerely repents his/her mistake (of having married and reproduced against the Shrimat) and wishes to come back, I think they should be accepted back into the fold, whether BK or PBK.
ArjunaBhai.

I am bewildered as to why you are saying souls should repent after getting married?!?
  • Are you advocating the sanyassi path?
    What does the household path mean?
    What percentage of PBKs are married?
    How will dead BKs be reborn?
    Who are the parents of reincarnated BKs?
    Do the Dieties live together as couples in purity, or does everyone lead separate lives?

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Post by john » 16 Nov 2006

Bansy wrote:I suppose one reason/excuse a (P)BK Kumar and a (P)BK Kumaris may wish to be together is to save costs, but to co-habit together is taboo, and solving it by marriage hasn't made it any less taboo.

Thus I just don't know how any (P)BK soul, after marrying or having children, can lift her or his head up again amongst the Brothers and Sisters at the centre after gaining their trust. Or even allowed to go back to the centre. Yes, it's up to oneself to make it up to Father Shiva but your own self respect has just gone down the drain.
Are you being serious? Baba has said in Murli those that marry and live together in purity are a great example. "... two wheels moving together ..."

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Post by fluffy bunny » 16 Nov 2006

John wrote: Are you being serious?
The salient issue here is marriage AFTER Gyan, rather than marriage BEFORE Gyan.

Without a doubt, the BKWSU accept married couples to convert into being BK "brother and sister" and staying together but do not encourage or allow marriage between BKs after Gyan - unless it is for very rare "service" reasons. You can read into that what you want. If you ask me, the real taboo is having any mental/emotional connection with any other human being - partner or child - never mind sex. In many BKs' experience, the Seniors jump on any sign of "attachment" double quick and expect a full confession of any sin. But those are the things that glue society together and the BKWSU has not proven itself as a stable model. It exists on a largely ever changing/refreshing congregation, at least in the developed nations. I have no idea of attrition rates in India.

Perhaps it is just because by the time a married couple comes into Gyan, they are already over the falling in love and lust bit! Especially if they were arranged to marry. Divorce is not possible in a traditional environment. I guess at the start the Indian leaders had not got their heads around the fact that Westerners share mixed sex houses without wanting to jump on each other all the time and applied Hindi rules. But some BKs certainly have got their heads around the fact that divorce is easy, profitable and with little shame in the West. Details by request.

Frankly, the more I think about this specific area the more I think it is all just a irresponsible patchwork of strung-together half-baked faiths and reactive responses invented on the go; all concern on what the public think/PR value and little to any real spirituality OR human practicality. I'd be interested in hearing a response to Surya question.

If the BKWSU entirely cuts people off from families and honestly living in the community they feed off, what are those followers going to do when they get old? It is not every society where individuals can live alone and be supported by pension funds. Sure they are depending on Destruction/End of the World coming so all the problems just disappear.

But if is 70 years already and if Destruction does not - again - what are all the old BKs in the villages going to do? Is Madhuban going to feed and nurse them? I do remember BapDada saying/telling some brother that it is better to go off and marry rather than burn in lust but cannot remember the full Murli quote. May be he was using prostitutes or something. One has always to separate them and their wisdom from the Seniors and their operation. The two may not be the same.

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Post by mr green » 17 Nov 2006

bansy wrote:What does Raja Yoga mean if it is not the highest of the high ? Souls that have commited gross forms of sin after coming into Gyan, yes are still souls but not necessarily Brahmin souls it seems. Why they are still there attending classes is bewildering. Since such souls cannot introduce another soul to Gyan or Shrimat :
There are, as you probably know, many 'senior' sisters and brothers that have enjoyed the energies of lust whilst in Gyan and are still teaching ... even doing seminars.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 17 Nov 2006

Mr Green wrote:There are, as you probably know, many 'senior' Sisters and Brothers that have enjoyed the energies of lust whilst in Gyan and are still teaching ... even doing seminars.
Oo-er missus ... if it did not mean the sadness of broken and inhibited lives it would be funny, like some "Carry on" Movie ... "Carry on up the Abu".

I am not asking you to name names but please do indicate and let them know that you know.

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Post by bansy » 17 Nov 2006

John wrote:Are you serious
Has been replied by ex-l with
ex-l wrote:The salient issue here is marriage AFTER Gyan, rather than marriage BEFORE Gyan.
My whole argument is what happens after coming into Gyan. Nobody cares what you did before that since you had not had your spiritual birth.
John wrote:Baba has said in Murli those that marry and live together in purity are a great example. "... two wheels moving together ..."
Which I already mentioned previously with
bansy wrote:However, if you are married before becoming a BK or already have children before becoming a BK, then you have already settled in a relationship and to be introduced to Baba should only enhance the relationships within your own family, and should this your own lokik family become alokik too, then that is a high reward (at least from what I understand from Gyan). So marriage or children before coming into Gyan is acceptable.
Thus there is sort of a dilemma it seems, in which Brother Surya2037 has pointed out, what happens after coming in to Gyan ? Should you pour all your energy into Baba alone, or do you need to be pulled by another soul ? It's a spiritual versus a material situation. Looking around you in most countries there are a lot of old people around, and you're going to end up old and lonely ? We all do end up old and lonely, we are all alone since we came into this world alone, though we do find things to fill up and keep us busy along the way. (Replace all pronouns with "the soul").
ex-l wrote:If you ask me, the real taboo is having any mental/emotional connection with any other human being - partner or child - never mind sex. In many BKs' experience, the Seniors jump on any sign of "attachment" double quick and expect a full confession of any sin. But those are the things that glue society together and the BKWSU has not proven itself as a stable model.
This is precisely what spirituality is about. The self and God. There is nothing in between, strictly. God is enough to fulfull all your dreams. Or is He ? The BKWSU or society is there to fulfull your body.

Those married before Gyan is not an issue. God has come later on to strengthen this marriage. So the question lies in after Gyan, and can two brahmins then marry ? In which case, the question is why does one brahmin need the support of another brahmin ? Who will decide if this marriage is possible and of purity ? Who and where will the marriage ceremony be conducted, at a church a temple etc ? Which one of these brahmins will pay the bills and which one will do the washing ? If one of those brahmins loses his or her job, will the other brahmin take on all the responsibility (or is that simply settlement of karmic bondage) ?

But ex-l has pointed out a key point ... in short ... are you in doubt ... how much do you trust the organisation you belong to to help you (materially and spiritually) during your old age. IF Destuction hasn't yet come before then.

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Post by john » 17 Nov 2006

I disagree and think it's the Dadis, Didis pushing the sanyasi issue. What is wrong with getting married, really? In a marriage you can have love without attachment, live in celibacy ... where is the sin?

Really let's get our heads out of the clouds with this ... are all BKs seriously going to live alone or in BK centres? No, baba says carry on with your life and your business, all cannot live in or off the Yagya ... remember me (ShivBaba) for 8 hours, study Murli for one hour a day and carry on with your business. Also baba says in Murli, "... what is the reason for which sanyasis cannot become pure? Because they leave their home and family ..."

I think this kind of issue is making BKs/PBKs sound like a cult that you are either in or out.
Yes, baba gives Shrimat but only a handful pass completely. What about all the other millions of BKs/PBKs ... are they not entitled to know Gyan and remembrance because they cannot follow 100%?

This is after all Godly knowledge for the world and world transformation is it not? Or is it just for a select few who will follow all Shrimat completely ...

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