Sex, Sexuality and Relationships within the BKWSU or PBKs

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fluffy bunny
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Post by fluffy bunny » 18 Nov 2006

John wrote:I disagree and think it's the Dadis, Didis pushing the sanyasi issue. What is wrong with getting married, really? In a marriage you can have love without attachment, live in celibacy ... where is the sin? Really let's get our heads out of the clouds with this ... are all BKs seriously going to live alone or in BK centres?
I take it you mean the Dadis "pushing the sanyasi issue" from a metaphorical/PBK interpretation?

I'd like to turn this point of view on its head and ask, do they really think that just because individual BKs are sitting in lonely bedsits, desperately not having sex, and waiting to be dumped in a municipal care home; that they are some how being therefore yogi and enlightened? Personally, I will stick my neck out and say there are a whole load of old Kunyas sitting there doing nothing but not having sex. That the quality of their lives and the level of their Brahmin-ness, if there is such a quality, may not be at all stunning.
  • • You can be unmarried for the whole of your live and still be filled to the brim with lust and attachment.
    • You can be a pukka BK sister on the outside and attached the Hell to some Senior Sister more than a husband is to their wife.
    • Where do homosexual BKs, or ex-homosexual BKs if they have been "purified" of their sexual orientation, fit in the picture? Why do they get to nest with others of the same sex in same sex bhavans, where temptation is at hand all the time, when ex-heterosexuals do not?
My first concern goes out to societies of need and necessity where there are no welfare states and pensions. Who is going to tend the fields and look after you when you are old and sick? It must be happening already, may be they just give the land and property to the Yugya and are looked after like I have heard some of the divorced BK sisters do after they divorce their non-BK husbands.

Then for the West; I do not know what is happening worldwide ... are there any couples that stuck their necks and went for it? That BK that overdosed in Australia was refered to as the center in charge's "partner" in one news report but it was not clearly clarified what that meant. Is Australia more contemporary in this area? I'd like to see this discussed more, to know the truth.

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Post by arjun » 18 Nov 2006

Sister Bansy wrote:What is the Gandharva marriage ?
Dear Sister Bansy,
Om Shanti. Gandharva marriage from the point of view of BKs/PBKs is that when an unmarried BK brother and an unmarried BK sister is following the path of knoweledge alone without the support of the family and in fact, despite the severe opposition of the family, then, if Baba feels that a marriage between two such souls may save them from the oppressions of the lokik family or save them from getting married to a lokik person forcibly, he may allow those two souls to get married. But as far as I know such gandharva marriage took place only during the times of Brahma Baba and most of them failed in the sense that the souls who were saved from their lokik problems by gandharva marriage fell into the pit of sex-lust soon after the marriage. But some BK couples were brave enough and continued to lead a pure life.

I know of two PBKs who were united during the days of Brahma Baba and continue to lead a pure life till date. Some BK couples were made famous by the Sakar Murlis which mentioned their names like BK Ramesh and BK Usha. But I believe that purity is such a subject that should be left to the individuals because purity cannot be proved just on the basis of outward appearances. One cannot know what is inside anyone's mind. I may appear to be pure from outside but I may be impure from inside. My vision, my vibrations, my thoughts can be impure.

Actually, the role played through Brahma Baba was a mother's role and hence many Gandharva marriages were approved. But the actual Shrimat for such unmarried BK souls embroiled in lokik problems is that they should lead a pure life at any cost. Since kumars (bachelors) can stand on their own feet, they cannot be forced to get married. Kumaris (virgins) are considered to be weaker (especially in Indian subcontinent) and hence in order to avoid forcible marriage to a lokik person against their wishes, they can either come and live with Baba, if they are bold enough. Otherwise, they can earn their own income while living with their family and lead a pure/celibate life.

Even during the days of Brahma Baba, ShivBaba used some tough language while speaking on the subjects of sex and marriage. I am reproducing below an extract of the Sakar Murli published by BKs on the subject of Gandharva marriage:

“Yah kiski buddhi may nahee aata hai ki kaam mahashatru hai. 2-4 varsh rah kar fir Maya ka thappad jor say lagney say gir padtey hain. Fir likhtey hain Baba hamney kaalaa muh kar diya. Baba likh detey kaala muh karney vaaley ko 12 maas yahaan aaney kee darkaar nahee hai. Tum Baap say pratigya kar fir bhi vikaar may girey, merey paas kabhee nahee aana. Badee manzil hai. Baap aaye hee hain patit say paavan banaaney. Bahut bachhey shaadi kar pavitra rahtey hain. Haan, kisi bachhee par maar padtee hai toh unko bachaaney liye gandharvi vivaah kar pavitra rahtey hain. Usmay bhi koi-koi ko toh naak say Maya pakad leti hai. Haar kha letey hain. Striyaan bhi bahut haar khaa leti hain. Baap kahtey hain tum toh soopanakha ho, yah sab naam is samay kay hee hain. Yahaan toh Baba koi ko baithney bhi na dey. Kadam-kadam par Baap say raay leni padey. Surrender ho jaaye toh fir Baap kahengey ab trustee bano. Raay par chaltey raho. Potamail bataayengey tab toh raay dengey.” (BKs dwara prakaashit Revised Sakar Murli taareekh 04.01.06, page 3)


“It does not touch anyone's intellect that sex-lust is the biggest enemy. After remaining pure for 2-4 years, when they get a loud slap from Maya, then they suffer downfall. Then they write, ‘Baba, we have blackened our face (i.e. suffered defeat at the hands of sex-lust).’ Baba writes back that those who blacken their faces need not come here for 12 months. Even after making a promise to Father, you have fallen into the pit of vices. Do not come to me again.

It is a very high goal. Father has come only to transform us from impure ones to pure ones. Many children marry and lead a pure life. Yes, when a virgin suffers beatings, then in order to save her, a gandharvi marriage is performed to enable her to lead a pure life. Even among them, Maya catches hold of some by their nose. They suffer defeat. Many women also suffer defeat. Father says you are Soopanakha (sister of Ravan in the epic Ramayana, who tries to lure already married Princes Ram and Laxman to marry her during their exile-period in forest); all these names are of the present time. Here Baba will not allow any vicious person even to sit. One must seek opinion from Father at every step. If someone surrenders, then Father will say, ‘now become trustee.’ Keep following the advice. Only if you give your potamail can you be given advice.”
(Revised Sakar Murli dated 04.01.06, page 3 published by BKs, narrated by Father Shiv through Brahma Baba)

With regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by arjun » 18 Nov 2006

Surya wrote:This topic came up between us when I asked him who will be looking after Kumars or Kumaris when we get older. So since than I am wondering if this is possible or not. Because I don't wish to go to a centre and surrender like the Kumars, kanias or matas do. Does anyone knows if this is for real or not!? Or is this Brother imagining things?
Dear Surya Bhai,
Om Shanti. I agree with sister Bansy in her reply to your above question. Everything is based on faith. If you have faith on Baba and knowledge, which says that this world is going to get transformed from a sinful, sorrowful Iron-Aged world to a pure, prosperous Golden Aged world, then you can remain a kumar and enjoy the company of God, whom you, like me, believe to be present in corporeal form. Based on my personal experiences, I would say that you would not repent if you maintain a balance between the lokik and alokik life and continue to lead a kumar life.

But if you do not have faith in the knowledge (especially the predictions regarding the transformation of the world) turning out to be true, and if you feel insecure about your old age, then my personal advice would be that you take independant decision rather than to repent later. Seek Baba's opinion in this regard only if you have faith in him and the courage to follow the Shrimat. From the point of view of knowledge it would be considered improper to disobey Shrimat after seeking it.

With regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by arjun » 18 Nov 2006

ex-l wrote:• You can be unmarried for the whole of your live and still be filled to the brim with lust and attachment.
• You can be a pukka BK Sister on the outside and attached the Hell to some Senior Sister more than a husband is to their wife.
Om Shanti. Your view has been corroborated by the advance knowledge where ShivBaba (through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) has said that those married PBKs who remain pure in their thoughts, speech and actions are like kumar/kumaris (bachelors/virgins) and those unmarried PBKs who create impure thoughts, words and actions are like adhar-kumar/adhar-kumaris (literally meaning half-kumar/half-kumaris, but here it refers to married BKs/PBKs).
With regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by arjun » 18 Nov 2006

• Where do homosexual BKs, or ex-homosexual BKs if they have been "purified" of their sexual orientation, fit in the picture? Why do they get to nest with others of the same sex in same sex bhavans, where temptation is at hand all the time, when ex-heterosexuals do not?
Om Shanti. I think the following Murli point was quoted somewhere on this forum directly or indirectly by some member:
"Aisi-aisi bachhiyaan hain, jo ek-doh ko itnaa pyaar kartee hain jo ShivBaba ko bhi itnaa nahee kartee. ShivBaba kahtey hain – tumko buddhiyog merey saath lagaana hai ya ek doh may aashik-maashook ban jaana hai. Fir merey ko bilkul hee bhool jaatey hain. Tumko toh buddhiyog merey saath jodnaa hai, ismay mehnat lagtee hai. Buddhi tootati hee nahee hai. ShivBaba kay badley, din-raat ek-doh ko hee Yaad kartey rahtey hain. Baba naam sunaaye toh traitor ban jaatey hain, fir gaali deney may bhi deri nahee kartey. Is Baba ko gaali dee toh ShivBaba bhi jhat sun legaa." (BKs dwara prakaashit revised Sakar Murli taareekh 04.05.06, pg 2 & 3)

“There are such bachhiyaan (female Brahmin children) also who love each other so deeply that they do not love even ShivBaba to that extent. ShivBaba says – do you have to connect your intellect with me or do you have to become the lover and beloved (aashik-maashook) amongst yourselves? Then they forget me completely. You have to establish connection of the intellect with me. This involves a lot of hard work (mehnat). The intellect does not get disconnected (from bodily beings) at all. Instead of ShivBaba, they keep remembering each other day and night. If Baba declares the names, then they would become traitors; then they would not even hesitate in defaming Baba. If you defame this Baba, then ShivBaba would also listen immediately." (Revised Sakar Murli dated 04.05.06, pg.2 & 3 published by BKs, narrated by Father Shiv through Brahma Baba)

With regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by john » 18 Nov 2006

“There are such bachhiyaan (female Brahmin children) also who love each other so deeply that they do not love even ShivBaba to that extent. ShivBaba says – do you have to connect your intellect with me or do you have to become the lover and beloved (aashik-maashook) amongst yourselves? Then they forget me completely. You have to establish connection of the intellect with me. This involves a lot of hard work (mehnat). The intellect does not get disconnected (from bodily beings) at all. Instead of ShivBaba, they keep remembering each other day and night. If Baba declares the names, then they would become traitors; then they would not even hesitate in defaming Baba. If you defame this Baba, then ShivBaba would also listen immediately." (Revised Sakar Murli dated 04.05.06, pg.2 & 3 published by BKs, narrated by Father Shiv through Brahma Baba)
Baba has also spoken of sisters touching each other, which I enterpreted as a sexual matter.
So outward appearences can be very deceiving.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 18 Nov 2006

“There are such bachhiyaan (female Brahmin children) also who love each other so deeply that they do not love even ShivBaba to that extent ... If Baba declares the names, then they would become traitors; then they would not even hesitate in defaming Baba." (Revised Sakar Murli dated 04.05.06, pg.2 & 3 published by BKs, narrated by Father Shiv through Brahma Baba)
Amazing ... imagine that ... two or more BK Sisters, living off Lekhraj Kirpalani's money in the Golden Age of the Yugya ... in love with each other so much that they would be willing to become traitors and attack the Father if they were revealed! Such an atmosphere it must have been ... Pretty kinky too.

There it is in the Murli and so it cannot be denied. And given that the BKWSU have not edited it out, my guess is that it must still be an issue.

Are these the type of BK that caused the split in the Yugya? The ones Lekhraj Kirpalani did not have the heart to boot out? [A different topic, but I am not sure that we ever clarified what caused the split when Sevak Ram left]. This topic of relationships is a very deep one.

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Post by bansy » 18 Nov 2006

Arjunbhai, Thanks for the explanation of the gandharvi marriage.
Arjun wrote:But I believe that purity is such a subject that should be left to the individuals because purity cannot be proved just on the basis of outward appearances. One cannot know what is inside anyone's mind.
Yes, I also agree with this.

We have to see what is the intention for the marriage. As with all actions you take in this spiritual life. With the gandharvi marriage it seems to be a way out to oppose the forced marriage scenario.

The way I see it that I don't think it is anyone's initial intention to get married after they come into contact with Gyan. You don't join the BKs or PBKs with this intention, do you ? Murlis mention civil and criminal eyes quite often. And would expect Baba alone would make you full and content. Thus any intention to marry after joining Gyan means some doubtful thoughts have entered in whatever relationships (with lokik or alokik or God).

Yes, one cannot know what is inside anyone's mind.

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hi

Post by surya » 19 Nov 2006

Dear soul brothers,

Thanks for replies. Bansy and Arjun, I know the destination is very high, nothing compares to this one. I cannot wish for Destruction because the highest on high VIP (Shiva) is visiting us, how can I ask him to leave? Bansy said to have faith in the drama. Yes, I have faith combined with some arrangements for when I get older. So I will write to Baba about it.

As for companionship for the present time I don't think marriage is the way out, as that brings all sort of problems too. Its just that the issue of a Gita Patchalas could be resolved if I was a married person. My nearest Gita Patchala is miles and miles away. There are no PBK couples around to open one.

I met sisters with the same problem. They too are young and when comes to give the knowledge to anyone they are left by themselves to sort out the vibration between male and female. You cannot choose who will turn up at your door step. In the mean time, I am thinking to ask my neighbour, an elderly lady in her 90's, to be my travel companion. She is an older Mata and so will sort me out in different ways. She can be there between me and any soul that comes in contact. Oh, don't laugh!!!!!!!!! Oh, man!

What about you John, what are you planning to do?

surya :lol:

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Post by bansy » 19 Nov 2006

Brother Surya2037

Please be assured that I am not hoping souls having to be alone to do everything, if one is kept busy either lokikly or alokikly and the tasks done are of good natured and good intentions, then in a subtle way as a single person you will be doing service for yourself and for those around. One should not make anyone or anything depend on him or her, or vice-versa. The sharing needs to be mutual.

I feel your dilemma is one about being alone when you get older, it is good you take time to think about yourself and taking responsibility. To not feel isolated, maybe try to be involved in the community around you. Whether you are a BK PBK or not, everyone is probably thinking on similar way as you as regards to getting older, since the world is apparently getting older. There are lots of old people around it seems.

Neighbours are an interesting concept (could be raised as a separate topic) in that almost everywhere in the world, the community we live in is breaking down and quite often we don't know much about the persons who live next to us or across the street even after many years. The BK/PBK is a spiritual support system. The community is also another social support system. To have harmonious neighbours regardless of their religion or background is a plus. Maybe one of the ways to strengthen your neighbourhood is to do volunteer (physical) work for the area, in this way you participate in sharing what is needed for everyone around you in general. However, spirituality is for the self, so there is no need to "sell" it as Baba says simply be a magnet and attract.

I have been told from BKs that having co-operative non-brahmins are sometimes more appreciable than having conflicting brahmins. There are also many non-brahmins who are good and sincere and honest. We were also once non-brahmin.

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Sex, Marriage and the BKWSU

Post by pbktrinityshiva » 05 Dec 2006

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dp5/sex3.htm

I found this article to be interesting, concerning the act of sex and health. A somewhat scientific viewpoint with leaning towards Ayurvedic/Hindu belief.

Here is an extract;
Sexuality, whether in the erotic flourishes of Indian art and in the Dionysian rituals of its popular religion, or in the dramatic combat with ascetic longings of Yogis who seek to conquer and transform it into spiritual power, has been a perennial preoccupation of Hindu culture. . . .

Indian 'mysticism' is typically intended to be an intensely practical affair, concerned with an alchemy of the libido that would convert it from a giver of death to a bestower of immortality. It is the sexual fire that stokes the alchemical transformation wherein the cooking pot is the body and the cooking oil is a distillation from sexual fluids. The strength of this traditional aspiration to sublimate sexuality into spirituality, semen into the elixir Soma, varies in different regions with different castes. Yet though only small sections of Indian society may act on this aspiration, it is a well-known theory subscribed to by most Hindus, including non-literate villagers. In its most popular form, the Hindu theory of sublimation goes something like this.

Physical strength and mental power have their source in virya, a word that stands for both sexual energy and semen. Virya, in fact, is identical with the essence of maleness. Virya can either move downward in sexual intercourse, where it is emitted in its gross physical form as semen, or it can move upward through the spinal cord and into the brain, in its subtle form known as ojas. Hindus regard the downward movement of sexual energy and its emission as semen as enervating, a debilitating waste of vitality and essential energy.

Of all emotions, it is said, lust throws the physical system into the greatest chaos, with every violent passion destroying millions of red blood cells. Indian metaphysical physiology maintains that food is converted into semen in a thirty-day period by successive transformations (and refinements) through blood, flesh, fat, bone, and marrow till semen is distilled -- forty drops of blood producing one drop of semen. Each ejaculation involves a loss of half an ounce of semen, which is equivalent to the vitality produced by the consumption of sixty pounds of food.

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Post by mr green » 05 Dec 2006

Please, I am trying to eat my dinner :lol:

Yeah, but the Indians also created the Karma Sutra.

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Post by freefall » 05 Dec 2006

Mr Green wrote:Yeah, but the indians also created the Kama Sutra.
... and the Khajuraho, and the Koka-Shastra, and the Ananga-Raaga, and the Gita Govinda ...

Why, Gita Govinda is even recited every day in the orthodox Krishna temple of Udupi. It is some of the most erotic and most beautiful poetry I have ever read.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 05 Dec 2006

Mr Green wrote:Yeah, but the Indians also created the Karma Sutra.
Hmmn, but what evidence is there in the Kama Sutra or Khajuraho that the participants actually let fly? I think they are against it.

Basically, I accept the argument given, no moral judgement attached, and also accept Freefall's point that love is an art that was and should be highly developed. Indeed, I think you can blame the British largely for beating it out of India. In my opinion, the "unlimited sex is OK has no consequences" backlash of the 60 and 70s against the suppressive prudery than preceeded it went too far in the opposite direction to the detriment of individuals and society.

The traditional Chinese have similar theories regards the depletion of hard to replace kidney jing. They go even further to claim that the state of the parents Jing (essence) as well as the Yin and Yang balance of all the other organs is transferred directly to the developing embryo and included in this genetic imprinting is the mental and emotional states as well. The spinal marrow feeding the brain too.

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Does the BKWSU emasculate men and de-feminizes women?

Post by fluffy bunny » 07 Dec 2006

Emasculate adj : having unsuitable feminine qualities [syn: effeminate, ...](E*mas"cu*late), deprived of virility or vigor; weak; to deprive of strength or vigor;

I think we have recognized how the BKWSU emasculates men and has few strong male figureheads. Perhaps a lack of clear role model behavior?
  • I had never thought about it before but someone suggested to me that "the BKWSU also de-feminizes women". I do not know this but I raise the question for others with experience.
From a Gyani point of view, I suppose it has to be correct and seen as desirable; the model is that were are preparing ourselves for a perfect virginal paradise where the only different between men and women is the length of their hair ...

From the critics point of view such emasculation is very bad for the male psychology.

Obviously, we see a little ribald humor as a reaction to it on this forum. My experience is that it was largely unquestioned and unchallengeable within the BKWSU. Any discussion, never mind dissent, was put down as "brothers Maya" the senior sisters most likely taking the side of the sisters. Our role models were not particularly masculine men and, in some cases, fairly masculine women. In general, Indian brothers are not masculine by comparison. Much of the activity was feminising such as "Avyakt dancing", lacing doilies on the Bhog food tray and lots of housekeeping (... is God *really* such a faggot!?! ). Physical stuff like hard work or sport or assertiveness was seen as "not very Avyakt". Actually, the lack of "assertiveness" as a virtue is notable as is the emphasis on "sweetness" and gentility. Would others agree that we were in essence court eunuchs?

Sure, the organization was female dominated, and the SS had their own take on matters, but I also heard that some sisters felt equally bullied and so I am not sure that it was entirely sexual but more generally about status within the BKWSU.
  • • What do others think?
I am not sure that women were de-feminized. De-sexualized, fair enough ... is gender synonymous with sexually defined roles or were both sexes just being de-genderized equally.

The question very much ties in with the the way the BKWSU conceives "body-consciousness" and defines body-conscious activities. We have not really done so. My feeling is that how they conceived it in the West is different from India.

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