Only devotees remember God

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bansy
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Only devotees remember God

Post by bansy » 12 Jun 2007

A question to all

Todays revised Sakar Murli published by the BKs 12 June 2007 :
Everyone remembers God because they are experiencing sorrow. When people have any difficulty or illness, they remember God. Only devotees remember God. There is no devotion in the golden and the silver ages. Otherwise, that would also become the cult of devotion. First there is devotion, then knowledge and then disinterest.
Note - the word "cult" is in italics in the Murli hence ShivBaba used this word in English.

As all Raja Yoga students (i.e. BKs, PBKs, PPBKs, PPBKs etc) have to remember ShivBaba (almost repeated in every Murli/Vani), does that mean everyone now is performing devotion?

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Re: Only devotees remember God

Post by abrahma kumar » 12 Jun 2007

bansy wrote:"Everyone remembers God because they are experiencing sorrow. When people have any difficulty or illness, they remember God. Only devotees remember God. There is no devotion in the golden and the silver ages. Otherwise, that would also become the cult of devotion. First there is devotion, then knowledge and then disinterest." Note - the word "cult" is in italics in the Murli hence ShivBaba used this word in English.
Nice one bansy. I think that the standard BK riposte to that would be and emphatic NO. However one distinction that I think the BKWSU Murli presents us with to support that viewpoint is based around the whole idea of an aim and object. is not it said that since we now have an aim and objective we are not like those other devotees for whom everything is based on blind faith?

(Does this topic run along similar lines as the question about whether BKWSU students practice a religion?)

Interesting that the word 'cult' is used. One inference could be that all we BKs have sanskaras of 'cult-following' in our spiritual DNA. However now that we have found Shiv Baba we can put those ignorant days behind us. You no doubt have the awareness that the word cult has many subtle shadings and not all of them loaded with negativity. However whether standard BK indoctrination takes care to look at the all-round perspective I am not too sure. Would be interesting to read the Hindi and have access to the original version.

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Re: Only devotees remember God

Post by john » 12 Jun 2007

bansy wrote:As all Raja Yoga students (i.e. BKs, PBKs, PPBKs, PPBKs etc) have to remember ShivBaba (almost repeated in every Murli/Vani), does that mean everyone now is performing devotion ?
I think it will be better to see the quote in context with the Murli. Are you able to post the whole Murli for us to read that don't have it?

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Post by jannisder » 13 Jun 2007

Well, it is obvious. Read the Murli and what you have to do is remember Baba over and over again. At least eight hours a day! That makes you a devotee! And cult leaders print their wish in your brain so you can not do anything else anymore.

That's how brainwashing works but BKs brainwash themself this way, so you can never blame the one who is telling you to remember and so they wash their hands in innocence.

Everything bad happening to you like sorrow and illness is your own fault. If you do not remember Baba, you are weak!!

And then the BapDada pictures??? Oh boy, that is definitely devotion!! But you must know that!

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Post by andrey » 13 Jun 2007

It is different. The rememberance of a devotee in Dwapur and Kaliyuga is different from the rememberance with knowledge in the Confluence Age. First devotion, then knowledge, then disinterest for the whole world.

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Post by joel » 13 Jun 2007

jannisder wrote:Well it is obvious, Read the Murli and what you have to do is remember Baba over and over again, at least eight hours a day! That makes you a devotee! And cult leaders print their wish in your brain so you can not do anything else anymore. That's how brainwashing works but BKs brainwash them self this way, so you can never blame the one who is telling you to remember and wash their hands in innocents.Everything bad happening to you like sorrow and illness is your own fault if you do not remember Baba, you are weak!! And then the BapDada pictures??? Oh boy, that is definitely devotion!! But you must know that!
It is devotion on the level of intensity of devotees of Krishna and Mary. The way the BK introduce it, is as being universal spirituality. Then it is the lectures of a charismatic person, with a charismatic disembodied visitor. It is necessary to be as a devotee to these lectures and the lecturer to be knowledgeful, powerful, virtuous and successful. You'll have more success with God through us. That is our life and our business.

Then, what irkles me, or perhaps titillates, is that they edit their Murlis where Dada says it is sinful to remember Brahma. That remembering Brahma you become even more sinful, will not be purified. (I have this Murli -- two versions seven years apart -- in storage somewhere).

Dada was charismatic and everyone was hopelessly in love with him in a love that he returned to the fulfillment of many. From the BKWSU point of view, it is a disservice to direct people away from Dada, given the personal relationship they themselves enjoyed. For them Dada said those words (sinful to remember Brahma) to divert attention to God from himself, but they know his life is the model of Godly student life, being the No. 1 effort maker. And therefore everyone should know about Brahma Baba, who after all they consider the Mother.

But there is another angle I can think of.

There are always a percentage of students who are attracted more by the idea of Shiva than by Brahma. Since the beginning many tried to connect to God without going through Brahma. Dada brings this up repeatedly in Murlis, 'you cannot get to Shiva Baba by yourself at home, you have to come here. This is the real thing', and if you're not here, you're an unfortunate square.

Heidi Fittkau wasn't the first to think she could speak directly with God, and she won't be the last. Many believe that God is democratic, they have as good a right to contact God as any other.

With ten possible breakaway BKs at every center, many needed for their capacity to work for the group, for their readiness to donate and to testify at BK gatherings, why give them ammunition to leave? Probably that thought also entered the Murli-editor's mind because as Baba tells us in the Murli, at every center their are "children" who are dissatisfied with their center-in-charge sister. Of course, they don't need Baba to tell them that many are dissatisfied. Center life, after all, is an emotional pressure cooker driven by devotion seasoned with religious ecstasy.

The Murli editor probabably thought, "A bunch of people left last time that Murli came around, so why not take away those objectionable lines that will be so memorable to those who hear them".

Perhaps the PBKs, with their more laid back attitude of getting mentally and financially in contact with God, offer an acceptable alternative allowing millenial and prophetic certainty, and a life path based on spiritualistic practices and principles. A new science of virtue.

The BKs say their path is knowledge. But knowledge doesn't need special initiation rites or beliefs. Their practice is fervent devotion: it is enough to be an ignorant mother to be most beloved of God. The one who takes care of a home, can take care of the world.

It is the mothers who have the same devotional attitude to the BKs as they have to other holy men. "It is enough that they love Baba," Rajni said to me. "What more do you expect from them? It is enough! Baba gives each what they need."

So devotion is accepted as a legitimate form by the group, and they do celebrate the Hindu religious festivals. They distinguish their celebrations as being based on 'knowledge'.

It would be knowledge if their methods were magically successful and universal, like gunpowder or mathematics.

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Post by jannisder » 13 Jun 2007

Funny thing is, when i started the 7 Day Course it was mentioned that it "was not a religion and they did not do any devotion".

That was the first lie.

And who was it that said, "if i can make them (BKs) believe this, they believe anything". ???

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Post by bansy » 13 Jun 2007

john wrote:I think it will be better to see the quote in context with the Murli. Are you able to post the whole Murli for us to read that don't have it?
I would like to. But likewise in my previous quotes or book publication quotes, I don't have any scanner here. I sometimes receive a Murli/Vani via fax, and if and when I visit a centre I am sometimes given a bunch of recent Vanis.

(I am sure folks have printed copies of Murlis, Vanis and others but other than by scanner, what other way is there to put it on the encyclopedia other than typing it all out ?).
andrey wrote:it is different the rememberance of a devotee in Dwapur and Kaliyuga and it is different the rememberance with knowledge in the Confluence Age. First devotion, then knowledge then disinterest for the whole world.
In the Confluence Age, we are given the knowledge. To understand and churn this knowledge accurately, we also need Yoga, and thus remembrance of ShivBaba. (Dharna and Seva to complete the 4 subjects in our learning too). The moment we get disinterest, we no longer need ShivBaba. It is said in Murlis that those who do the most devotion receive the highest salvation.

So what it seems is for students in the Confluence Age who do the most study and remembrance (thus devotion) so that once we become BapSaman, we no longer need ShivBaba (and vice versa, He no longer needs us as we move into the Golden Age), then instantaneously we have unlimited disinterest. This "instantaneous" moment is being already discussed in other threads.

It is possible to describe devotion as ritualistic devotion during Kaliyug (e.g. offerings), as to non-ritualistic devotion in Confluence Age (e.g. so offerings such as Bhog etc). Maybe the confusion arises to the meaning of remembrance itself. Does remembering God = devotion ? Well, if one is sitting and meditating (Yoga), is this a form of ritual ? Just some thoughts.

Andreybhai, could you elaborate on the differences from a PBK viewpoint ?

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Post by surya » 13 Jun 2007

bansy wrote:(I am sure folks have printed copies of Murlis and Vanis and others but other than by scanner, what other way is there to put it n on the encyclopedia other than typing it all out ?)
Hi sister,

No, we don't have printed copies of Murlis and Vanis - you see! I only have the Murlis that I downloaded from the encyclopedia. Cant you go to your local library and scan it? Or get it scanned by a printing shop or someone else?

I hope that you find a way to do it.

Thanks, :D.

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Post by bansy » 13 Jun 2007

I hope that you find a way to do it.
Brother, I am sure there's a way YOU can do it too.

If I have thought of a way I could do it, I would have. That's why I have been volunteering on this forum for the past year, so hopefully members would be grateful of the efforts that others have done in the background of this forum so they can get to read some of the Murlis that are already in the website.

I can thus give a typical answer and that is to go to the centre and get it.

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Post by arjun » 13 Jun 2007

Sister Bansy wrote:As all Raja Yoga students (i.e. BKs, PBKs, PPBKs, PPBKs etc) have to remember ShivBaba (almost repeated in every Murli/Vani), does that mean everyone now is performing devotion?
Om Shanti. May be Baba wanted to say that (most of) the devotees remember God with selfish motives (to get their temporary desires fulfilled) and His mouthborn children remember Him in a selfless manner (if they are in true soul consciousness). That is why Baba keeps repeating the mantra 'ichha maatram avidya', i.e. one should attain a stage where one does not even know what is meant by desires.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by john » 13 Jun 2007

bansy wrote:I can thus give a typical answer and that is to go to the centre and get it.
Some people cannot go to centres for one reason or another.

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Post by bansy » 13 Jun 2007

Some people can not go to centres for one reason or another.
John and Surya

I understand and I am sure you know I am aware of this situation. Well, that's not my problem is it?

How about this situation ... some people just don't have a scanner and have any access to one for one reason or another. That's also not my problem is it?

Try to understand another person's current situation without comparing it your own situation without assuming everyone lives in the same town as you do or has access to a scanner like you do. Maybe your surroundings are difficult, but so are many others.

You know, I may have tried to have bothered to getting this Murli somehow onto the website, but maybe its simply not worth it. End of this thread for me.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 13 Jun 2007

bansy wrote:Well, that's not my problem is it?
No, it is not.

And to think that the BKWSU could resolve the matter in minutes by uploading the files they already have onto a public server ... even BKs are asking for them via this website because they get no where with the BKWSU.

But ... eventually ... someone inside or outside the BKWSU is going to have to independently resolve this matter for once and for all. I think it would be a lot more fundimentally useful that all the picking over of minutae that goes on here.
  • Disgusting ...
"Is this Justice?" has just been uploaded to the download section in PDF form.

... I am not present but still active. Thank you from my heart to Bansy for holding the fort here so well and for so long.

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cross the border to Pakistan

Post by surya » 14 Jun 2007

bansy wrote:Brother, I am sure there's a way YOU can do it too. I can thus give a typical answer and that is to go to the centre and get it.
Sister ,

I know, doesn't help to get angry, even less helpful is to get angry with your own words.

Never mind, now, we need to cross the border into Pakistan.

I agree with bro ex-l that Virendra Dev Dixit should be kindly ask if we can have all his Murlis (English & Hindi) library published here on this forum. Arjunbhai please ask Baba about it.

Good day, :).

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