Purity

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Post by paulkershaw » 23 Jul 2007

andrey wrote:Getting back to the topic of purity, I believe that the intimate relationship between man and woman is considered dirty not only in India. In all religions it is considered dirty and now, because there is no power of religion anymore, and due to the intense influence of corruption this attitude has changed almost everywhere.
No! No! No! this is certainly not so, I have just been a to a wedding ceremony where the priest very explicitly explained about love and sex between the couple being of the purest and most natural form. I think some religions have corrupted what is essentially the most beautiful acts that two loving people can create together.

The statement made that all religions consider intimate relationships dirty is biased and only made according to your puritanical beliefs.

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Post by andrey » 23 Jul 2007

Dear brother,

the preacher will preach like this because he lives like this. But if we look in the scriptures of Christianity, what do we see there? Preachings of preachers have changed now.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 23 Jul 2007

andrey wrote:In all religions it is considered dirty and now, because there is no power of religion anymore, and due to the intense influence of corruption this attitude has changed almost everywhere.
Its not true andrey, there is this tendency of BKs to make vast sweeping statements but if you study history, you will find that time and time again it is not true. Particularly with regards to sex, which has been practised and worshiped in many forms.

With respect to India, most historians place the blame firstly on the Muslim invasion and then on the Victorian British Christians ... or at least the Indian upper classes wanting to ape the values of the Victorians, even to this day.

But within Hinduism ... there is even a ritual - still practised to this day - where when the young girl has her first period, she is ritually and multiply raped by the village priests/Brahmins. Of course, they do not see it as rape. They see it as tradition and the girl is being purified and the villaged blessed with abundance.

What is this a memorial off? Virendra Dev Dixit? (Please not, I am not accusing him of rape but the practises of sexual incidents which the forum has been very quiet of).

Thankfully, for many cultures, sex, procreation are celebrated. Many of those cultures are what would be called "indigenous" religions, e.g. tribal. Where do the tribal people fit within the BK picture as they do not appear on The Tree?

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Post by andrey » 23 Jul 2007

dear br. ex-l,

From the tone of your post i can see that you don't subscribe to such activities, and this attidtude will not vary a lot. Generally such behaviour feels like not good. Why? Where does the soul know if it is good or bad so that to feel certain way?

Despite we may have knowledge of many different practices, then these need not be called a religion immediately so to appear on the Tree. They definitely do appear there as a small branch, twig or a leaf but the picture will be very complicated if everyone should be included, so only main religions appear.

We also can discriminate and adopt the correct practices. For example, now the difference to the way we live to a different world, where there is no sorrow, where we have the attitude of brother and sister or even brothers amongst ourselves. Rapes are more likely to happen with outsiders. If done to brother, sister it is considered worse.

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Post by john » 23 Jul 2007

andrey wrote: A second before he was not and now he is. He could have attained such stage even long time ago.
Can you clarify whether this or your opinion or official confirmation of 100% pure karmateet stage of Virendra Dev Dixit?
How pure is Veerendra Dev Dixit. 100% pure. Definitely. He is karmateet.
Can you let the readers know where you got this information please?

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Post by fluffy bunny » 23 Jul 2007

I could have mentioned Confusionism as well. The Chinese traditional religion, which is a blend of the two, has as many as 390 million followers. Significantly more than Judaism and Sikhism, even Buddhism. Ditto "Communism", which may shown as a twig is arguably bigger still.

I think the reason is more to do with the fact that Lekhraj Kirpalani and the Om Mandli was not educated individuals. By their own admission many, including the leaders, had not even seen a map of the world by the 1950s. Well, off topic ...
andrey wrote:From the tone of your post I can see that you don't subscribe to such activities.
Rest assured andrey, I assure you that I do not subscribe to ritual rape but it does not take intervention of a Supreme Soul.

I was thinking more that if Shiva Baba has had sex with 60 PBK sisters via Virendra Dev Dixit (and I wonder why it was just sisters), then according to BK theory this would have some memorial in Bhakti. Such memorials such as Krishna with the Gopis, these brahmin priests initating young menstrual girls or in tantric sexual Yoga. It would be good if we could know about it and discuss it in an impartial and educated manner.

But, if that is too much, why not just answer John's question and not be distracted by me?

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Post by andrey » 23 Jul 2007

Dear brother John,

It is only my opinion. In the declaration, it says impurity will finish in about 10 years.

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Post by mr green » 23 Jul 2007

andrey wrote:Dear Brother Mr. Green,

That is why the Supreme Soul teaches us intellectual Yoga and narrates spiritual knowlegde to transform our consciousness and does not teach us any physical exercises. He asks us that we develop attitude of brotherhood amongst ourselves, to change our vision so that the world changes.

That's why we are incognito warriors. No one can guess our intention from the outside. We mix with the society and are just ordinary. No one will ever come to know what we have done.

Dear Brother John,

I have made such statement only after and because such question was asked, that how pure is Veerendra Dev Dixit, then to such question such answer can be given that can be well maintained. Now is the time for the third personality to reveal. The part of the revelation of the second personality has over. The third personality is Vishnu. It is a combination of 4-5 souls.

Vishnu is complete form of Lakshmi and Narayan. Narayan is complete form - pure form. Purity is also a matter of our vision, with what vision we observe. We cannot expect a trumpet to announce. Taraa - he became 100 pure. A second before he was not and now he is. He could have attained such stage even long time ago. If you tell me the external signs we can discuss more.

Dear Brother ex-l,

Getting back to the topic of purity, I believe that the intimate relationship between man and woman is considered dirty not only in India. In all religions it is considered dirty and now, because there is no power of religion anymore, and due to the intense influence of corruption this attitude has changed almost everywhere.

In the Muslim countries even today, there is very close connection between the political and religious power. Most of the rules in the country are not man-made-laws created by the politicians, but are the religious rules. One of the sign of kingdom of Ravan is that political and religious power is in different hands.
You pillock.

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What is purity?

Post by pilatus » 24 Jul 2007

I'd like to get us away from the andrey-centred ping-pong and back to the key question raised by ex-I, namely - what is purity?

I've been back to look at the BK Maryadas chart - there are two main headings of relevance "Observing Purity" and "Pure Diet". The text of the former fits well with my recollection of BK obsession - it focuses on celibacy first and then moves to a complicated bit about purity of thoughts, speech, vision and relationships.

It was clear in my time with the BK and it's reflected in the posts on this topic, that when a (ex/reforming/non) BK says Purity they most often mean celibacy with all the confusion and variety of views and experiences which that brings with it. All the other aspects mentioned above tend to get forgotten!

It's sometimes mentioned in Murlis, but gets lost in the noise, and is common throughout e.g. the New Testament, that the key point is purity of heart. The topic has repeatedly come back to this e.g.
mr green wrote:I think if you want purity, you can only work at it in your heart.
As a meat/fish/garlic/onion-eating, alcohol-drinking, loving husband and Father, this just has to be right!

Best wishes to you all

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puritanism versus purity

Post by alladin » 24 Jul 2007

You know what? I believe that puritanism (and prudishness) and purity, especially in the sense of child-like cleanliness of the heart are mutually exclusive; since the first one has roots in a malicious vision of the self and others, and is a lense through which seeing and judging as "sinful" many natural activities and behaviours of humans.

Obsession for celibacy, becomes a good excuse for people to make scanty efforts in other more incognito aspects of Purity, i.e. thoughts, which don't gain us immediately name and fame, BTW! Puritanism is one of those disgusting things in the BKs, that turned me off from the start, that represented an unbridgeable gap between me and this organisation. But this statement of mine should fit in the "what's pulling me away topic"! :lol:

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Re: puritanism versus purity

Post by fluffy bunny » 25 Jul 2007

alladin wrote:Obsession for celibacy, becomes a good excuse for people to make scanty efforts in other more incognito aspects of Purity, i.e. thoughts, which don't gain us immediately name and fame
This statement is a lot deeper than it may at first appear.

Its actually not that hard for most women to shut off their sexuality, even in the West. I would say the majority actually do and have to through lack of satisfaction and the menopause helps (though, amazingly, I have never heard it discussed once in BKWSU circles). Much of my questioning of Indian women's experience is to see how they feel bound into marriages with no mutual attraction and used as "brood mares".

I take what you say and expand not just on "purity" but intelligence. The BKWSU appears to focus entirely on the value of keeping their knickers up and ignores, say the value of intellectual development. So, you are a virgin or a born again virgin ... is that enough? Why not an emphasis on a pure intellect? Would purity of thought would be an acceptance of a greater objectivity, a lack of mental limits and a courage to question?

Is "purity" merely the lack of sexual activity ... can it exist in the face of a vacuum of mental or moral activity? It would seem to be a useful tool and the natural expression of a high soul, I could agree.

Does the BKWSU style abstinence lead to a lack of procreative thought in all departments?

I feel that the primary reasons and practises for sexual abstinence are; a) cultural specific to the start of the Yagya (including Lekhraj Kirpalani's own family trauma), b) a tool to divide, separate and exclude BK followers from external influences making it easier to connect to BapDada via a channelling of yearnings, c) practical to release a huge amount of time, money and energy from individuals to be channelled into expanding the organization, d) to help disassociation from body-conscious, in a worldly meaning, self-identities.

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puritanism versus purity

Post by abrahma kumar » 25 Jul 2007

2 excellent recent contributions. Thank you both.

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Purity ...

Post by malachiel » 25 Jul 2007

Purity, to me, was a bunch a rules, that I had to follow while I was in it ... Beyond just the sexual contact, or any contact for the matter, it meant continually ignoring the body of the person facing me, wich makes it quite difficult, especially when you're becoming a nurse ... :D.

Purity now, is to be who you really are, do what what you really want to do. Unfortunately, on my mind (and I don't say this to be rude), purity is still linked to the idea of morality, which we all know is to change with people and time. No, I don't think a child molester is pure. But is that because it really is not, or because I was brought up in a certain kind of family, society, or time? Do I think it is impure because I know it is not in my best interest? There are places where having mercy on children is considered being impure. They ought to be beaten, and sometimes unluckily, abused. ******* happens. (Not my personal point of view here).

I would like to ask; is becoming karmateet becoming pure as well? Does not having any karma mean that you are totally pure? Loads of souls are born without karma in this world, play their role and experience pain, does that purity do them any good?

From what I have learned from religions, from the moment they require a hold on sexuality, one of the genders usually loses its equity, and it usually means a disturbance in the surrounding relationships. It is as if to be close to God, you had to leave behind your loved ones. There is a need to be saved. If you do the necessary steps, you will be pure enough that something will happen. This bringing henceforth the question; what is pure enough? When is pure enough? I say; what about being pure all through the process? Why the need for a run to an unattainable Grail?

They say; "you are pure when you see purity in everything". That is also something I don't understand. If everything is pure, then I don't need to act on anything. It will either resolve itself, or someone else will do it. I have no responsibility for not acting, or for any action I carry ...

Purity cannot be attained without consciousness. Consciousness requires detachment (or more what I like to call objectivity). People lose objectivity when it comes to the ones they love. How are we supposed to love everyone with just enough objectivity? When do we experience real closeness, true intimacy? How can purity mean to relate to God or others with no mention of the physical realm, when it's beacause of this physical realm that I am able to meet others?

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Post by pilatus » 26 Jul 2007

Hello, you asked
malachiel wrote:How can purity mean to relate to God or others with no mention of the physical realm, when it's beacause of this physical realm that I am able to meet others?
Perhaps it's as ex-I said to me in a different context "wrong God"? I won't pretend to be able to speak for other faiths but another God, Jesus said, ‘I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.’ John 13.34-35

From very early on in my contact with the BK, I felt uncomfortable with the emphasis on Purity followed by Peace, whereas my background with Christianity had "taught" me that Love and Peace were paramount.

Most of the discussion on this topic revolves around the issue of Purity vs Love which gets warped (here as elsewhere) to Celibacy = Spirituality = Good vs Love = Sex = Bad.

Like many of the previous contributors, I'd much rather see us learning to love one another at all levels of our relationships, balancing the emotional, mental, spiritual and physical aspects, especially when it comes to loving ourselves!

Very best wishes

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Post by andrey » 27 Jul 2007

Our aim is to become detached. There is the example of the seed that detaches from the three so that to be sown in the earth once again. Of this big three with great variety, the seed is only one. It is not the Supreme Father Shiva, but the seed of humanity, the first man Adam. It is said that some seeds detach, but then attach again (to the world with the mind and intellect), then detach again, then again attach, but there is one such seed that once it gets detached it never gets attached again. This is itself stage of purity of the mind. The other example is the lotus flower that is not affected by the mud it lives in. It is also said that before becoming deities we should first become angels. First we have to cut all relationships with the world and with everyone and then to connect with one. Otherwise one enters into tug of war.

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