Who is Bharat and who are Bharatwasis ??

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shivsena
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Who is Bharat and who are Bharatwasis ??

Post by shivsena » 05 Jun 2007

Discussion CD No.240 dated 15.01.07 at Belgachia, Calcutta
Ref. No.Disc.CD-240-extracts, dated 17.05.07

Kisi mataji nay poocha: Baba, Bhaktimarg may makar sankranti manaatey hain - yeh kya hai gyaan may? Bhaktimarg may makar sankranti din manaatey hain, Ganga may nahaata hain. Behad ka maana kya hai?

Baba nay kaha: Makkaar Shankar kee anti ho jaati hai. Kisi nay poocha: Makkar ka matlab? Baba nay kaha: Makaar ka matlab hai, jo makkaari detaa hai. Arey! Shankar kee aatma bhi satopradhan, satosaamaanya, rajo aur tamo banti hai ki nahee? Jab tamo banti hai usko kahtey hain - "makkaar". Makkaarpanaa deta hai. Makkaarpaney ka ant ho jaataa hai.
*******************

A mataji asked: Baba, Makar Sankranti is celebrated in the path of worship. What is that in terms of knowledge? Makar Sankranti day is celebrated in the path of worship. People bathe in the river Ganga. What does it mean in unlimited sense? Baba said: The part of Makkaar Shankar ends. Someone said: What does Makkaar mean?

Baba said: Makkaar means the one, who gives deceitfulness. Arey! Now the soul of Shankar also becomes satopradhan, satosaamaanya, rajo and tamo or not? When he becomes tamo, he is called makkaar (deceitful). He gives deceitfulness (makkaarpanaa). Deceitfulness ends.
=================================================

Dear pbk brothers.

The above answer from Baba (through Virendra Dev Dixit) depicts Shankar as a Deceit( makkaar), who passes through the phases of sato-rajo-tamo. Now please read what ShivBap has to say in the Murli dated 5-9-97;

"ShivBaba is teacher also and Satguru also. He is brahma's guru also. He is not the guru of Vishnu and Shankar (Shankar toh patit banta hi nahin). Shankar never becomes impure, so he does not require a guru. These things are to be understood by the intellect. Those who imbibe these things intellectually get the highest honour and those who do not imbibe then they will loose their rank."

Also as per advance knowledge, Shankar is not one soul playing the part but 3 souls (shiv + Ram + Krishna) combined playing the part (so how can all 3 souls become tamopradhan at the same time?) and also as per the Murli "Brahma - Vishnu - Shankar take birth together" (that moment is still to come in future) and not seperately. The Murli also says, ''Shankar is a subtle Deity'' and in the Subtle Region no one passes through the stages of Sato - Rajo - Tamo.

So, what i want to highlight is that the above answer is given by Krishna and not ShivBaba (as pbk think), and it is Krishna (Bharat) who at the fag end of Kaliyugi shooting has become 100% brashtachari (corrupted), and that Krishna (Bharat) that is now corrupting the whole Godly knowledge to such an extent that Bharat will now become 100% jhoot khand. Then Ramshivbaba will have to come and make Bharat (Krishna) into 100% sach-khand.

shivsena.

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Post by john » 05 Jun 2007

ShivasenaBhai

That seems a logical find. The only possible flaws I can see are;
''Shankar is a subtle Deity'' and in the Subtle Region no one passes through' the stages of sato-rajo-tamo.
If Brahma Lekhraj Kirpalani is in the Subtle Regions how can his stage be falling.

Virendra Dev Dixit may say, there are two Shankars one with a limited and one with an unlimited meaning, which to my mind keeps everything vague, so one is unable to pin any true relevance to a Murli point.

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Post by arjun » 06 Jun 2007

Om Shanti.

Although it has been clarified in advance knowledge that Shankar is a combination of three souls, i.e. Shiv, Ram and Krishna, but Shankar cannot be always inferred as a combination of three souls. When we observe Shankar as part of the Trimurti, then Shankar represents one soul, i.e. the soul of Ram. When we are not speaking of Shankar as part of Trimurti but as a separate personality, then we can infer Shankar to be a combination of three souls.

Shankar, i.e. the soul of Ram as an individual can pass through the three stages of sato, rajo and tamo during the Confluence Age. Shiv, as we know is beyond these three stages and since the soul of Krishna, i.e. Dada Lekhraj has already left his body, he too cannot be categorized in these three stages. The purusharth (efforts) of a soul can be categorised as sato, rajo, tamo only when it is present in its own body.

Suppose I commit a crime in the outside world and say in the court that some other soul entered into me and committed the crime. So, I am not guilty. Will the judge believe?

As regards Shankar not becoming impure, here Shankar refers to the incorporeal stage of the soul of Ram. When he is in that stage he cannot become impure.

These are my views. However, I would also obtain an answer from Baba in this regard.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by shivsena » 10 Jun 2007

andrey wrote: It is the soul of Ram. The soul of Krishna is not Bharat who becomes the most elevated and most degraded.
Dear andrey Bhai.

Is there any Murli which says directly that ''Ram is Bharat". I have many Murlis which state that "Ram is parampita paramatma", ''Ram is Bhagwan'', and Ram is Ishwar".

If you can quote even one Murli of ShivBap which directly states that ''Ram is Bharat'', then only can it be considered as proof that Ram is Bharat. Advance knowledge teaching of Krishna can change in the end but ShivBap's words in Murlis will be considered as final truth.

shivsena.

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Post by new world » 10 Jul 2007

Dear Andreybhai, in the Murlis it's said that 'Bharat hee Sachkhand banta hai aur Bharat hee Jhootkhand banta hai'. Can you please tell me;
  • 1) Who is this Bharat who becomes Sachkhand & Jhootkhand?
    2) During shooting period, when & how he becomes Jhootkhand?
    3) the Ladder picture is the story of upliftment & downfall of Bharat. Can you please depict that episode of the story of Bharat's Jhootkhand period picturised by the Ladder picture?
    4) What is meant by 'Bharat hee Jhootkhand banta hai?'
* Read the following Murli & Avyakt Vani points;
  • 1) 'Bharat Swarg (heaven) tha, ab Nark (hell) hai'.
    2) 'Abhee to yah Bharat Patthar-puree bana hai, fir Paaras-puree banega'.
    3) 'Bharat ke hee Varna gaaye jaate hai. Brahmin Varna, Devta Varna, Kshyatriy Varna, Shudra Varna'.
Now please tell me;
  • 1) What is meant by 'Bharat ab Nark (hell) hai?' (Here it's CLEARLY stated that NOW Bharat HAS BECOME HELL. He himself becomes hell).
    2) During shooting period, how & for how many years Bharat plays the role being hell?
    3) Similarly, what is meant by 'Abhee to yah Bharat Patthar-puree bana hai'? When & how he becomes Patthar-puree?
    4) 'Bharat ke hee Varna gaaye jaate hai. Brahmin Varna, Devta Varna, Kshyatriy Varna, Shudra Varna'. This means that the soul who plays the role of Bharat passes through verious Varnas from Brahmin to Shudra. Then can you depict that story about how Bharat passes through verious Varnas from Brahmin to Shudra during shooting period? Especially when he plays (during shooting period) the role of being Shudra?
* In the Confluence Age drama when the soul of Bharat plays the role of Jhootkhand, Nark (hell), Patthar-puree, Shudra, Kaami Kaanta, even then is he worthy to be entitled as the 'Father'?

These are simple questions for churning of Godly knowledge & not to criticise advance knowledge. If PBKs feel that this article has written with an intention to criticise advance knowledge, then I am really sorry. And I'll not post such articles in future. OK?

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Post by arjun » 11 Jul 2007

Dear new world,

Om Shanti. I have conveyed your questions to ShivBaba (through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit). I shall convey the replies as soon as I receive them.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by andrey » 18 Jul 2007

Dear br. new_world,

That's why in the Avyakt Vani it is asked, "are you content with yourself", with you present efforts etc. Whatever the world, and the shooting to remain, content is not a small thing. But it is also said that now, after you have come in The Knowledge, your rising has started.

Sometimes when it is says "Bharat", it may mean the land too. Then we see the beginning period of the land or the soul, this is the original stage. If it has fallen now then we know this is not the original stage. We have to aim to see all souls also in their original, pure stage.

Father is Father, if your physical Father is multi-millionaire, and becomes broke, he remains your Father. this is just play of the drama. However the Supreme Soul Shiva does not become a Shudra. Our benefit lies with him and also with the one who makes the effort to attain his stage.

There will be such souls that will be falling fast or falling slower. To maintain the soul-conscious stage for the longest period now during the shooting in the Confluence Age may also mean that in the drama also he will be mostly OK.

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Who is Bharat and who are Bharatwasis ??

Post by shivsena » 04 Apr 2008

Offtopic: Dear administrator Bhai.

I am starting a new thread on "Who is Bharat and who are bharatwasis" . Please do not merge this thread with other threads, as there are many misconceptions in advance knowledge about who is Bharat and who are Bharatwasis.


Dear arjun Bhai.

According to advance knowledge, ''Ram's soul is Bharat'' and Murlis says that "Bharat par hi sara khel hai". Can you please give your views about which is this ''sara khel on Bharat''?

Also please give your views about who are ''Bharatwasis'' and who are ''double-videshis'' (which BapDada speaks of, in Vanis many times)?

shivsena.

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Re: Who is Bharat and who are Bharatwasis ??

Post by arjun » 07 Apr 2008

Om Shanti. As intimated in another thread, I have found two files on this topic in 'my documents'. One is on Bharatwasis that Sister Bansy had asked and another one is on Bharat that brother Shivsena had raised. These questions were raised in 2006 probably on this forum itself; In case of sister Bansy's question I had sent my answer for approval to Baba and it was approved. In case of shivsena Bhai's question, I am producing the reply given by Baba.

1. Can someone give the definition of a bharatwasi in Raja Yoga terminology ? Is it a soul who takes 84 births ? Not simply someone who's current birth is in India/Bharat.
Ans: As far as I know, as per the advance knowledge being given by ShivBaba it is not necessary that all those who are born/living in India are Bharatwasis. It is the souls which belong to the deity religion (with the special features of purity and tolerance) and the kshatriya religion (with the special power of facing adverse circumstances) who can be called true Bharatwasis. However, I will get this point clarified by Baba and intimate His reply as soon as possible. I think that it is also not necessary that the Bharatwasis should take full 84 births because the souls belonging to the deity religion keep descending from the Soul World even in the Copper and Iron Age--------------teek hai (OK).

2.In Murlis it is said---''ShivBaba ki mahima alag aur Krishna ki mahima alag''. In Murlis it is also said--- "ShivBaba ki mahima bhi aprampar aur Bharat ki mahima bhi aprampar"-----(aprampar means bountiless). So co-relating the two mahavakyas it is very evident that ShivBaba is Ram's soul in 100% nirakari stage---(bindi bap ki koi mahima nahin hai)----and ''Krishna'' and ''Bharat'' are one and the same soul---------- QED. OK your views and comments please.
Ans: Krishna ki rasi Christ ki rasi se milayi jati hai , wo kaisa Bharat hoskata hai ? (The zodiac signs of Krishna and Christ are matched; how can he (i.e. Krishna) be Bharat?)

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Re: Who is Bharat and who are Bharatwasis ??

Post by shivsena » 08 Apr 2008

Dear arjun Bhai.

Thanks for your answer; but my query still remains unanswered.

As per advance knowledge, Ram's soul is Bharat. What i want to know is that ''which is this khel which is on Bharat'' (since it is said in Murlis that ''sara khel Bharat par banaa hua hai''). Also if Ram's soul is Bharat, and if this khel refers to the whole Sangamyugi drama, then Ram's soul was not in the Yagya from 1942 to 1970. So how can this whole Sangamyugi khel be on Bharat (Ram)?

This is what i wish to know.

shivsena.

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Re: Who is Bharat and who are Bharatwasis ??

Post by arjun » 08 Apr 2008

Dear brother,
Om Shanti. If mere physical presence in the Yagya is the criteria, then Brahma's soul has not been in the Yagya since 1969 for almost 39 years compared to the physical absence of the soul of Ram from the Yagya for almost 28 years from 1942 to 1969.
Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Re: Who is Bharat and who are Bharatwasis ??

Post by shivsena » 08 Apr 2008

arjun wrote:Om Shanti. If mere physical presence in the Yagya is the criteria, then Brahma's soul has not been in the Yagya since 1969 for almost 39 years compared to the physical absence of the soul of Ram from the Yagya for almost 28 years from 1942 to 1969.
Dear arjun Bhai.
That is exactly where the ambiguity of advance knowledge lies. It is accepted that Krishna is in the body of Virendra Dev Dixit but what part he is playing, is still not clear to anybody in Advance Party. Krishna is not sukhma-vatan-wasi in any Subtle Region above as BKs or PBKs believe but he has been in this body ever since Lekhraj Kirpalani has left his body in 1969; and it is said in Vanis that ''adi se lekar anth tak ek brahma ka hi part hai'' (meaning that from the beginning to the end, part is played by brahma, first through the body of Lekhraj Kirpalani and then through the body of Virendra Dev Dixit). So co-relating both points makes Krishna as Bharat (not Ram); this is the raaj (secret) which will be revealed in the end and those who do not know it, will get naraaz.
shivsena.

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Re: Who is Bharat and who are Bharatwasis ??

Post by fluffy bunny » 08 Apr 2008

Why cant you just tell us what you think Shivsena instead of demanding that we dance to your tune in questions and answers session?

I follow what you write but it is becoming boring and frustrating ... not to say, feels a little patronising.

Why can you just say what you want with your justifications and allow others to decide? It all seems to be the same thing to me and the links to the Murlis tenuous.

Of course, that brings us back to the same old issue. You are sitting like a king on your pile of Murlis and we are left outside the castle walls dependent on on whatever scraps you throw us. Its pointless to carry on a discussion unless we all have the text books in front of us.
  • • When are you going to work with us to document and publish all of the Murli collection in public for all?

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Re: Who is Bharat and who are Bharatwasis ??

Post by arjun » 09 Apr 2008

ex-l wrote:Why cant you just tell us what you think Shivsena instead of demanding that we dance to your tune in questions and answers session?

I follow what you right but it is becoming boring and frustrating ... not to feels a little patronising.
Since Shivsena Bhai has the same answers for all the questions he could be given a one word command by the Admin by which he can save his time and energy in typing the same answer again and again :D. As for us we have no choice (but to counter him) till January, 2010 when his prophecy would (supposedly) come true. :?

May be he wants to follow the example oft repeated in the Murlis that if someone is repeatedly told that he is a buffalo, one day or the other he starts believing himself to be a buffallo and if he is asked to come out of a window, he says how can I jump out of a window. I am a buffalo :lol:.

Similarly, he wants us to believe that the soul of Dada Lekhraj (Brahma Baba) is the owner of the body of Baba Virendra Dev Dixit and is misleading all the BKs and PBKs. :wink:

As regards the Murlis, may be he wants to keep it with himself like the BKWSU and will realize only when the same Murlis are uploaded by others after obtaining from other sources.
Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Re: Who is Bharat and who are Bharatwasis ??

Post by fluffy bunny » 09 Apr 2008

Well, to be honest, I would not even go as far as to say "mislead".

Fine, some of us have blind or conformist faith. Others are still questioning. I feel that shivsena is struggling with truths (the anomalies and contradictions) and is trying to make sense of it. Although my intuition is vague, I also feel that there are multiple, and not always utterly reliable, psychic influences around the BKs AND that Lekhraj Kirpalani was not the infallibly wise God that he is portrayed to be. I would not be so sure as he is in my constructions. Possible, yes, Lekhraj Kirpalani and others do flit about between mediums. How can we ultimately tell?

My reaction is twofold ... a) there is no point talking if you don't give others the language with which to talk back (e.g. publish the Murlis in full and be damned) and, b) repetitive and transparent rhetorical questions only set folk against any argument. We are not primary school infants.

If this is a private discussion between one or two people ... fine. Excuse me. Otherwise, please come down from your pulpit and share with us the whole Murli collection so that we might build the foundations and start to understand as you do. Do not give us PhD tests and expect us to pass.

I would prefer, "this is my theory in full" with attached evidence and THEN see if anyone has any question to ask in return. If they do not ... bad luck. No kings here today.

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