Disquisition on Brahma Kumaris as a new religion

for ex-Brahma Kumaris, to discuss matters related to their experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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driedexbk
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Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: It has been over a year that I left the center but still there is a lot of pain in my heart...pain caused by deception. I went in looking to come into grips with my own sense of self and came out with no faith at all. The experience was so bad at times that now I am clear there is no such a god. For that I am grateful. Yet, there were other moments that I would not change for the best of my experiences. I experienced love as I had never imagined! It was a beautiful experience of forbidden love.

Disquisition on Brahma Kumaris as a new religion

Post by driedexbk » 14 Feb 2007

Warm greetings to all. I am not sure if it is appropriate to direct the forum to read this article. I found it interesting; Brahma Kumaris: A New Religion? By Reender Kranenborg, Free University of Amsterdam.

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zhuk
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Post by zhuk » 15 Feb 2007

A religion?? Hang on a minute!

I was told in no uncertain terms that the BKs are defintely NOT a religion; one love-bombed disciple I knew was so adamant on this point that he said he would never have had anything to do with them if they were a religion.

And then about a year later (after persistent questioning on my part) he had to admit to me that that's just what the .org is :P

The religion that was never a religion :D

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driedexbk
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Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: It has been over a year that I left the center but still there is a lot of pain in my heart...pain caused by deception. I went in looking to come into grips with my own sense of self and came out with no faith at all. The experience was so bad at times that now I am clear there is no such a god. For that I am grateful. Yet, there were other moments that I would not change for the best of my experiences. I experienced love as I had never imagined! It was a beautiful experience of forbidden love.

Post by driedexbk » 15 Feb 2007

Indeed. I never understood how they could insistently say it was not a religion. Worshipping the image of a Brahma Baba (a Jesus-like) and Dadis (saints), offering Bhog (consecration of the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ), receiving toli (receiving communion) and blessings is all the same I experience with the Catholic faith. What a joke! I read once that for any group to be considered a religion it needed to have a minimum of 900,000 members. What a coincidence, huh?

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Post by sparkal » 15 Feb 2007

It is relative to the individual and their capacity to understand, their awareness/ consciousness. In other words, some may practise/ experience it as a religion and others may be beyond that sort of awareness and intense devotional mind slave stuff. So perhaps it is not so easy to label an organisation if it is actually made up of different personalities. So is it what the members make it, or does that not matter anyway and people will brand it a religion anyway?

As with "love", the word religion will mean different things to the various individuals. The thing about spiritual institutions is that there may be a danger of this mass consciousness thing taking over and distorting the teachings to suit their own weaknesses. If this is done en-mass, then you are dealing with a new religion from a new religion.

God came to destroy religion among other things, so what is pure religion? God's religion is peace.

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driedexbk
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Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: It has been over a year that I left the center but still there is a lot of pain in my heart...pain caused by deception. I went in looking to come into grips with my own sense of self and came out with no faith at all. The experience was so bad at times that now I am clear there is no such a god. For that I am grateful. Yet, there were other moments that I would not change for the best of my experiences. I experienced love as I had never imagined! It was a beautiful experience of forbidden love.

Post by driedexbk » 15 Feb 2007

If God came to "destroy"(religion among other things), where is the purity in that? How can his religion be peace? Destroying and peace do not go hand in hand. Organized doctrine is a great hindrance, diverging man against man, and destroying (like God does) one's uniqueness, intellectual capacity, and perception of one's own reality. These institutions and religions are essentially based on vested interests and exploitation.

Indeed, there is an eternal reality which can be discovered only when the mind is free from all chimeras. Thus, one must be cautious and alert of the individual or any group who offers comfort (another illusion), for in this there must be exploitation. Surrendering to this promise will only lead one to be entangled like a fish in a net.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 15 Feb 2007

driedexbk wrote:If God came to "destroy"(religion among other things), where is the purity in that?
It is certainly a straight Murli quote. But who knows what mind it comes out of ... I would guess Lekhraj Kirpalani's as it is a straight Vaishnavite Hindu quote as well. It is noted that the BKWSU has registered themselves "to promote Hinduism" in their charity formation but have officially told the UN that they are a New Religion.

Just a typical little paradox ... both are a stretch of Gyan but I guess arguable from a BK point of view. The real truth is that they sustain status and are good for income.

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proy
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religion/university

Post by proy » 16 Feb 2007

I take polarised views on this issue deliberately. For my own good. From my experience the BKs are practising a religion whatever they like to call it, and it is interesting that they describe themselves to the UN as a religion while they still deny that in the 7 day course. I don't think I need to give examples here of why I say they are practising a religion, you have all been to class on a Thursday morning. On the other side I would personally take them at their word that they are a university, even if I don't believe them. The longest anyone would stay in a university to get a degree would be a decade, then you can leave and get a job. I did my time as an undergraduate, now I am on my doctoral thesis. :)

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Post by fluffy bunny » 11 Aug 2007

Repeat after me ...
  • we are not a religion ... we do not have any gurus ... we do not worship Lekhraj Kirpalani, we're ... "The Lacey Doily Cult".
As you can see from the link, lace doilies are obvious a memorial of the Incorporeal Baba from last Kalpa.

Being an accurate stickler for these things; when did it say in the Murli that we all had to buy this stuff and who brought it into to the BKWSU as acceptable Shrimat? ... wedding-dress silky materials, little lacy doilies to cover the Bhog dishes, lacy tea cloths for the table and tray ... even the BK brothers do it! I mean, its a little bit gay, is not it ... Well, gay to the point that most gay guys might do it because it is so kitch and girlie but would not do it because it is so unfashionable. An typical example;
Image
The serious side to this is illustrate the gradual sanctification, making of a saint out of Lekhraj Kirpalani and Mama Saraswati who, noted elsewhere, has already been turned into a statue form; empty on the inside, fixed in one particular, perfected image on the outside. There is good enough business even in saints but it is not right according to Gyan.

Usual double speak and denial ... he is our 'not-a-guru guru' and our remeberance is entirely different from what Hindus, Christians or Buddhists do ... just because we say it is. And not even the Murlis will tell us otherwise.

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mr green
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Post by mr green » 11 Aug 2007

Yep, it is Bhakti Marg all the way.

It's just we were suckered too and thought we weren't being religious ... but we were.

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pinokio, watch out!

Post by alladin » 11 Aug 2007

"Yes, Gyan is different from Bhakti. What we are performing is not Bhakti" ... Hey Pinocchio, look at your nose!

So, it's a bit as if a fisherman told us "I am a cow!". And we believed him. Either he's a very good hypnotist, or we really want to believe he's a cow. I wonder how is it possible that the unquestioning worldwide audience and followers of BKs are indeed very varied and not made up of totally dumb, uneducated psychotic people. So, what's the trick? Is it like the Emperor's New Clothes story, collective imagination that makes the unreal seem real and tangible?

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Post by fluffy bunny » 11 Aug 2007

Could you go into some detail or analysis of why or what the similarity are?

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Post by joel » 11 Aug 2007

mr green wrote:Yep, it is Bhakti Marg all the way. It's just we were suckered too and thought we weren't being religious ... but we were.
You hit the nail on the head, Mr. G, and bashed it home.

We were told, "[Our rituals] are not Bhakti, because you know the Father and you are having all relations with the Father. So it is not Bhakti, but an expression of love of the Divine Family. Actually this is the beginning of all worship throughout history!"

I recall, on my first trip to Mt. Abu, thinking that I'd come to the BKs to leave Bhakti, and now was finding myself surrounded by ritualized activities. I had to convince myself that there were good reasons for all of that.

Among other purposes, those rituals are part of the process by which the BKWSU attempts to establish it claims to sacral authority.

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do not be afraid to ask questions

Post by alladin » 12 Aug 2007

Joel, seriously I say "You are right!".

Jokingly I say, no baby, we were not "convincing ourselves", we just had a huge amount of tolerance power.

ex-l, hi. I was in fact expanding further on the story, as I was jogging earlier! :wink: I think the problem started when for the first time the taylor showed inexistent pieces of clothes to the Emperor, for him to choose from. If at that time the Emperor had said, " hey, what are you trying to do, are you joking? Do you want to cheat me, do you think I am a fool? Guards, arrest this impostor!!" There would have been no aggravation. But maybe the Emperor had no self-esteem and thought, "well, if the guy is saying, look at this brocade, and what about this damascus, this silk with gold thread, why not picking the blue one ...?". I am the stupid one not seeing the clothes"!

So, he bit. He did it once and couldn't stop, otherwise he'd loose face in front of the court. The situation became more serious. The taylor raising the stake. Measuring non-existing sleeves and so on. Due to the Emperor's bad example, all subjects fell prey of a wrong conviction. In the end, that lack of discrimination and power to face, resulted in a total disaster! At the official ceremony, the Emperor showed up in his underwear, since the custom made suit was non-existing. Difficult to find a remedy at that point!!

Lesson would be; if possible, keep your eyes wide open. Do not take the bait. Do not be afraid of asking questions if something sounds untrue or nonsensical. Nor of being naughty or disobedient. Prevention is better than cure. Love and peace.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 12 Aug 2007

The story is here. Can you specifically relate it to your experiences with the BKWSU or may be some element of the history or development?

We cant just make broad allegations without substantiations. I like the point sparkal raised about "how they beat Hindu Bhakti into us so that they can beat it back out again". I don't know how things have changed recently. Is it different or is it not, if so I'd like to know how much. I swallowed a lot of the Hindu and Christian Bhakti stuff that was mixed in, wanting to be liked, loved, accepted but I think there was also an element of class conformity as well. I really did not like all the Brahma worship, I thought for individuals that never met him it was all a little artificial. "Expected behavior".

I am not sure if you are saying we were the naked emperors or or somehow, at some point Lekhraj Kirpalani was the emperor? If so, who were the taylors?

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alladin
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who is who

Post by alladin » 12 Aug 2007

I thought we are all Emperors. The cheating taylor are the BK SS and teachers who tell us many stories, we believe them and are too embarrassed to ask for more clarification. We are a bit insecure, we doubt ourselves, etc ... So we get into deeper quicksands and trouble based on blind faith, fear induced on us, as you described, and possibly " love for God". When things do not make sense, i.e. Bk rituals seem similar to the ones in Bhakti, what they despisingly call "paraphernalia" :wink: pics, idols, offering ceremonies, rakis, clothes, holy vessels, nectar, you name it, gurus that they do not admit to be considered as such ... we just accept and get addicted to accepting without questioning. The original whole Andersen's story contains many interesting points that can explain our psychology.

These BKs are really something, you know!!!??? They despise all other religions - however they try their best to present themselves as clean and tolerant + manage to sneak into interfaith activities. They do things similar if not exactly the same as all sects, cults and religions.

What's the breach in us that allows them to convince us they are "cool" and right, and everyone else is wrong? I guess the sense of "superiority" they instill in us, that choosen by God fortunate children idea. Tell you more later!!

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