BK concept of "Destruction"

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amaranthine
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Post by amaranthine » 14 Aug 2006

Rhe editing out quip was a joke - were's that tongue in cheek smiley

Russia and America is not taught at our centre - never was. I was quite amused when I saw all those exhibitions at mount abu. I think they do talk about 2 cats(?) fighting over butter or something - some other bk will have to help me out here! I tend to glaze over when Bhakti stories are mentioned.

Institutional policy sounds very grand, I teach the course and am not aware of any such policy. when I talk about Destruction I talk about the visions brahma baba had. I would guess that the official policy is that destruction happens and thats it, and that the specifics of how it happens are not known.

Shiva did not use the intellect of a scientist to explain his knowledge but the intellect of a Hindu devotee - thus all explanations are from that frame of reference.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 14 Aug 2006

amaranthine wrote:the editing out quip was a joke - were's that tongue in cheek smiley.
Sorry, is that directed at me? Yes, it is true. The Murlis have and are being gradually edited by some human and the non-politically correct or awkward stuff taken out. There is reference to who it is somewhere else on this forum. I was really shocked/surprised/disappointed to hear it. I suppose I had romantic ideals about "God's Word" being fixed and eternal and that some Hindiwalla chopping away at it on his own seemed just wrong.
amaranthine wrote:i would guess that the official policy is that destruction happens and thats it, and that the specifics of how it happens are not known.
  • I must wait until I hear avyakt7's answer.
It seems strange to me that BKs could come into Gyan in two different places and have two entirely different understanding. Doesn't the Russia versus America stuff figure in Adi Dev and Lekhraj's visions? It certainly did in Jagdish Chander's stuff and Murlis I had. I am just trying to get an overview of the curent state of play within the BKWSU regarding this stuff. Especially if there has been Shrimat to change it.
  • When you went to Abu, were they still teaching 'cats and butter' up there?
  • Do you think that the Bharatwasis are still taught Destruction, 100 years, Russia v. America and so on?
I am wondering if the West is getting a 'politically correct' watered down brand of Gyan now. If "market forces", as it were, had changed Gyan. When I drank the 'magic potion' it was just straight Gyan, none of this New Agey stuff I see now.

Anonymous

Post by Anonymous » 14 Aug 2006

I suggest that you take the 7 day course yourself at this time and find out. Just FYI. In every country is different. I had the chance to take the course in one country and to teach in another. The requirements change according to country ideologies/religions and according to time. (which makes sense, the truth is the truth but you don't want to do a dis-service until the soul is ready to "digest" more.) I have plenty of examples on this.

As far as the russia vs usa deal, I have not been taught that, neither do I teach it, for obvious reasons. I do not want to put myself nor the Yagya in a bad situation. Tact is required. If the student wants to know more, he will know in due time. The 7 days course it is supposed to be an "introduction" and before giving away information, we need to "check the pulse."

Best.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 14 Aug 2006

avyakt7 wrote:I suggest that you take the 7 day course yourself at this time and find out. Just FYI. In every country is different. I had the chance to take the course in one country and to teach in another. The requirements change according to country ideologies/religions and according to time. (which makes sense, the truth is the truth but you don't want to do a dis-service until the soul is ready to "digest" more.) I have plenty of examples on this.
I have done the 7 day course and used to teach it [in two countries].
  • But as far as the "Truth-Truth" goes is the Russia versus America thing in or out?
I think it is a bit of a problem. If Shiva OK-ed those original posters, and they are still hanging/being taught in Abu, then surely it stands as an absolute.
  • Who decides then, country to country, how and when "Destruction" is taught?
  • Are these things discussed openly or is it "just decided" and then done?
I guess what I am leading to is does it matter what God taught or not any more?

Anonymous

Post by Anonymous » 15 Aug 2006

Things are not "black or white." To tell someone "your life is predestined. what you have done before will repeat again for eternity..." even though, the truth, it is enough to kill that person's willingness to listen to the knowledge, especially if that person has been through a "bad" experience.

What do we gain in saying that there will be a war between USA and Russia where everything will be destroyed? Give the souls something that they can take with them which will make them better. No everyone is a Brahmin as you know. When you become soul conscious it shouldn't matter what war happens.. you know is all part of the game. But, for a lokik soul it is a huge deal.... Tact. mercy. To serve the tree, that is the goal. Perhaps in India they did not care about so much the USA and Russia and that was the time to disclose everything...at that time when British power was strong there... for the rest of the Western World however, there is a different meaning.

The truth can hurt. It matters what God taught... you just have to disclose it little by little according to the capacity of the soul.

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Post by arjun » 15 Aug 2006

Avyakt7 wrote:As far as the war between USA and Russia, take a look at the links below. It is worthwhile to mention that Russia became as such just in recent times. Before it was known as USSR (up to 1991). To be specific.: No, I haven't heard any Murli when both countries are mentioned.
Om Shanti. Here is a revised Sakar Murli point narrated by Father Shiv through Brahma Baba and published by BKs (translated into English by PBKs)

Russians and Americans are brothers (like ego and anger). They compete with each other in making bombs ... A story is narrated that while two cats fought with each other the cream was eaten by a third one. [Mu.23-10-74 Pg-2]

With regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by fluffy bunny » 15 Aug 2006

avyakt7 wrote:Things are not "black or white." ... What do we gain in saying that there will be a war between USA and Russia where everything will be destroyed? ... that was the time to disclose everything ...The truth can hurt ... etc
OK. But the fact is that here we are discussion between 'Brahmin souls' in a BK forum. You know, you asked a question about my relationship with God. It is 'off topic' for this thread but, briefly, I am willing to answer it here as it is relative to this discussion.

Primarily I and basically all other human beings have their first experience of God through those instrument souls that claim to represent God. You can see the accurate Gyani point of view here as well as the general point. In short, you would say that I and other meet God first through the BKWSU and its members. This is where the difficulty lies. To be honest, it is becoming more and more difficult to do so and this thread is a perfect example of it. Look how hard it is to get to the truth, to get you Avyakt7 to state clearly what a simple truth is in order to develop a discussion.

You cannot tell me that the BKWSU does not teach "Destruction", 5,000 years, 100 years, Russia and America because I know it does. I was taught to teach that it does - and never had any problem doing so. If it is the truth, it is the truth. But yet, look at the dance that is going on and tell me why? Let's face it, by Gyan, only a tiny fraction of souls are going to believe this stuff anyway.

I should ask you how long you have been in Gyan because may be you came into Gyan after the period that they started to edit the Murlis and re-write the indoctrination process from the straightforward 7 days course to the sort of New Agey, consciousness raising programmes.
  • How long have you been in Gyan?
When I was a regular student, day in day out the Murlis spoke about Destruction, Destruction, Destruction ... I cannot believe that they have been edited out THAT much. Likewise Confluence Age at 100 years. All the teaching aids had it clearly stated, as did the Seniors and the Family. Brahmin life was full of reference and speculation, one's life decisions were made within that context. I challenged ANY Brahmin soul on this forum to tell me that is not true.

But, even in the 80s a subtle re-write had started and the Destruction-Creation equation changed from 50-50 years to 50 to 60 years as it appeared that it was not coming. And, of course, we know that in the late 60s and 70s Confluence changed from 40 years to 100 years. So, we know that someone is "moving the goal posts" of Gyan and 70 years after the start of the Confluence Age, we are celebrating the 70th Year Anniversary.

When I was a regular student, I had no idea of this and never thought to question. I had full faith in the Knolwedge, surrendered my life and extended my trust to the Seniors. Perhaps if I had know that the goal posts were being moved by Madhuban, I would have been a little bit more cautious.

I never heard at that time "God" Shiva giving direct instructions to change the Knowledge. So, as a service to "this soul", I am asking you now whether He has recently. Or whether he has even made any reference - positive or negative - to why the Murlis have been changed in respect to this point?

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destruction/Murlis..

Post by freedom » 15 Aug 2006

Avyakt7, Amaranthine and BKs ..

You should be able to understand by now how Gyan and the 'instruments' had such an impact (not saying completely negative) on our lives back in the 80's with this SCARY DESTRUCTION issue and how it made us feel so small. Always being compared to Seniors, not making enough efforts, and how you would suffer if you did not have a high status in the Golden Age. And especially if you left Baba's hand ... oh, my ... it was a huge psychological imprint in our 'young', innocent and thirsty mind/intellects ...

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Post by amaranthine » 15 Aug 2006

I think things have changed a lot in the Western bk family from the early pioneering days of the 70s. when I talk to some of the older BKs they almost squirm with embarassment at what they did.

I also think that the course is taught very differently even within the same country (even within the same centre!) - in our centre for instance there is no lesson on the Trimurti, whereas at other centres there is. We also only teach lifestyle to students who are interested in going further with the knowledge i.e. interested in the Murli.

What I am getting at here is that I believe that the family, the way the organisation promotes itself and to some extent the knowledge is continually 'evolving'. Personally, I like this aspect of the organisation.

However, there are some constants of knowledge of which Destruction, 5000 years etc would be included in. I have never considered 100 years Confluence Age or Russia and America to be part of those constants. So if one day in the future the Knowledge evolved to a point where Destruction was seen as being merely symbolic, I might feel a little bit cheated and bitter, I would then have after all made life choices based on a lie, but who could I blame for that? I believe that all the big wigs of the organisation sincerely believe the Knowledge 100%, as it stands at any particular moment, and they always will. I do not believe that they are somehow vindictive and out to try and ruin peoples lives, I think they really do believe that they are helping individuals. Due to this fact before I commited myself to this life it had to be clear in my mind that if this was indeed a load of old cobblers I would not feel I had wasted my life.

And there have been times when I have become very frustrated with the way the organisation is run but the thing that always calms me down is that the family is not yet pure and so there will definately be bumps along the way. But for me the positives have always out weighed the negatives. I know this is not eveyones experience.

So getting back to the Destruction question, when I first found out about that Lakshmi and Narayan poster that talked about Heaven in 1974 I was a little shocked, mainly due to the fact that Baba must have OK'd it and how it had all been covered up? Why would he do that, why cover it up? "I don't know", is the short answer, maybe its his game? Maybe its a way of indicating to us that our faith should be based on our own experience of Yoga and not on facts and proofs etc or maybe it is just a load of old cobblers after all.

Regarding changing the Sakar Murlis, my understanding is that most of this was done in the 70s to make them less offensive to the Western culture, a sort of early political correctness, and that the changes were superficial. They still talk about 5 and a half billion souls for goodness sake - just how much longer can that be considered acurate. (Actually its 5-6 billion now!)

I've also never come across the 50:50 thing. The nearest I came to that would have been maybe about 1994 when I went to class in Madhuban by Ramesh Bhai. He was talking about 33 years of Sakar, 33 years of Avyakt and 33 years of Establishment. He was however very, very clear that this was his churning. My opinion is that most of these Confluence dates are, in fact, human churnings that have somehow become a kind of gospel in their own right. I remember before the millenium Avyakt Baba said something along the lines that, "if Destruction were to happen in 2000 would you be ready?" etc - He then spent about 4 or 5 lines confirming that He was only saying this and that this was, in fact, not going to happen etc etc. I bet there were brahmins out there getting ready to sell their homes and all sorts - hilarious.

Anonymous

Post by Anonymous » 15 Aug 2006

I understand your emotions about this issue. As you mentioned the "Scary Destruction." There are some things to keep in mind, however. Everyone in BK is an effort maker. Issues will happen. It is part of growth. You have obstacles. You decide to take a different path or you decide to overcome them. It is up to you.

God's knowledge is extremily subtle and for different understandings. As a matter of fact, it has been my experience that the more you understand the more difficult it is to put it in words and deliver it without misinterpretations. So, you use examples, paradoxes, metaphors, etc. to suggest something similar to what your understanding is. Words are limiting.

Finally, All that matters to me, is my direct relationship with God, ShivBaba (At the Confluence Age BapDada.) This is not through anyone else but just Him and I. Pesonally, I respect Seniors but do not have any Bhakti for a senior or for someone who has been "X number of years in Gyan." It just means to me , that they needed that many years. However, it is always inspiring to see someone with a very good Dharna, whether 1 year or 70 years in Gyan. That is the measure of your understanding of Knowledge.

Once you recognize that God is here, you make the efforts. You need to learn to get the sustenance from God alone. You cannot rely on the senior or in any other human being for sustenance. To do this, it requires courage, guts, and faith in what you deep inside know is true, even though you cannot totally understand. It requires honesty with yourself. Once you feel bliss in your meditations when remembering Baba, then all the questions are finished... all the dependencies left alone.... but, like He said, " it is not like going to your auntie's home." That makes the number.

You mentioned: "and how you would suffer if you did not have a high status in the Golden Age." There is no suffering in the Golden Age. I am surprised how so many souls can continue in this path without having the experience of God in their hearts. Without this, in my opinion; only bitterness develops instead of sweetness. All this mental stuff is worthless unless you feel God in your heart.

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Post by john » 15 Aug 2006

When I did the 7 day BK course it was in the form of A4 size booklets, it was called the correspondance course. One about the soul, one about Shiva, one about karma etc. This was in 1984 are they still used now? Actually I have a lot of books, booklets from that era. I assumed (at the time)that everything was OK'd by Baba and that the books were authorative as regards explainations of Gyan.
amaranthine wrote:regarding changing the Sakar Murlis, my understanding is that most of this was done in the 70s to make them less offensive to the western culture, a sort of early political correctness, and that the changes were superficial.
2 things spring to mind here one is why/how is the truth spoken by Shiva offensive? Two, how do you decide what is superficial?

There is one particular cut/change which is put forward by the PBKs regarding Shiva using a virgin as a Chariot. An earlier versions says Shiva doesn't enter a virgin and a later version is changed to read that he does. The significance being that does Shiva enter into Dadi Gulzar, she being a virgin.
avyakt7 wrote:All this mental stuff is worthless unless you feel God in your heart.
This could perhaps be read as 'ignorance is bliss'.

I feel the point of the mental stuff is to get to the truth, then the God you have in your heart is closer to reality.

Anonymous

Post by Anonymous » 15 Aug 2006

Dear Soul,

Without Gyan you cannot know God. Without knowing God, you cannot experience Him. "Experience" is the keyword. The authority of "Experience." You mentioned: "you would say that I and others meet God first through the BKWSU and its members. This is where the difficulty lies."

There is no chance to experience God through something other than yourself. BKWSU knowledge is giving you the map. It is for you alone to make the trip. Along the way you have relationships with different BK members "alokik family." You grow in those experiences, but the goal, the aim is God, ShivBaba alone. Without this, it is very difficult to make it.

As I mentioned in another post, once you feel bliss in remembrance, once you feel fulfilled, full even though it may be for a brief moment, all the questions are over... then you are able to understand. Otherwise there is no faith... doubts will come and go in your mind until you decide "enough is enough."

I am sorry but I will not respond any questions which deal with me. I am here to talk about God's knowledge. Once you feel that you are improving as a human being, that you are becoming better, that your connection is better ... as far as I am concerned, they can edit the Murli as they wish. This is not the time for Sakar Murlis anyway, when we have God himself talking to us in the Avyakt form showing us the methods for making efforts. Time is short.

Anonymous

Post by Anonymous » 15 Aug 2006

All this mental stuff is worthless unless you feel God in your heart.
This could perhaps be read as 'ignorance is bliss'.
I feel the point of the mental stuff is to get to the truth, then the God you have in your heart is closer to reality.
Clear example of interpretation. If that is the way you want to interpret it ... let it be.

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Post by amaranthine » 15 Aug 2006

John wrote: 2 things spring to mind here one is why/how is the truth spoken by Shiva offensive? Two, how do you decide what is superficial? There is one particular cut/change which is put forward by the PBKs
I remember being told that in the 70s a young Jayanti when reading the Murli had to deal with heckles such as 'baba is a racist'. this was in response to the language used in the Murli such as black being synonymous with degraded. I can understand why this was changed (i.e. black was no longer used to mean degraded), and needed to be, but at the same time think its a superficial change and did nothing to change the meaning of the message.

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Post by bansy » 15 Aug 2006

amaranthine wrote:I remember being told that in the 70s a young Jayanti when reading the Murli had to deal with heckles such as 'Baba is a racist'. this was in response to the language used in the Murli such as black being synonymous with degraded. I can understand why this was changed (i.e. black was no longer used to mean degraded), and needed to be, but at the same time think its a superficial change and did nothing to change the meaning of the message.
The question is if God's words are pure and whole, then there is simply no need to change them at all.

In this one example, if one feels that black has different meanings, then that's body consciousness view, and it is up to the teacher to have no fear and explain the meanings in the given context and situation.

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