Prajapati God Brahma

To discuss the BK and PBK versions of the factual Yagya history from the beginning.
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paulkershaw
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Post by paulkershaw » 07 Nov 2007

Andrey wrote:If Brahma Baba got his name through trance messenger, in trance there is no entering. *************** ShivBaba used to enter them ... "
There's a contradiction in your statement here Andrey. First you say that in trance there is no entering and then you say that Shiv Baba used to enter them. Do you mean to say that when ShivBaba entered them they weren't in trance?

In my experience as a practicing medium and channel for Higher Spirit, I must comment that in trance, Spirit does enter, even if it's only into the Auric fields or energy systems that surround the body, this is sufficient or enough contact to be able to speak through the voice box at the very least and that one has to be in a state of trance or at least deep meditation in order for this to happen. Personally, it can take me up to 20 minutes to achieve this state of 'being' in order to be relaxed enough to allow this to occur. I remember that Dadi Gulzar could take up to at least two songs length before it became apparent that she'd moved aside in order to allow the trance channeling to begin.

For other discussion, as it may not be part of this thread/s topic:

Also we should know that Spirit has different names for us. For example, we have our physical earthly name which has its own particular meanings and then our Spirit Parents would also have a seperate identity for us and would use this name when calling us and working with us. But all of this is for another thread methinks ... unless BB received his new spiritual name from the channeling entity that was descending into him a the time.

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Post by andrey » 07 Nov 2007

I mean "them" is not meant for those who go into trance. From the Murlis we know when ShivBaba enters, he does in such an ordinary way that even the Chariot cannot feel and he teaches through speaking through the mouth and not through inspiration.

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arjun
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Post by arjun » 07 Nov 2007

paulkershaw wrote:I remember that Dadi Gulzar could take up to at least two songs length before it became apparent that she'd moved aside in order to allow the trance channeling to begin.
Yes, that is true - one or two songs for her to go to the Subtle Region/into trance with a jerk. And another song or two to come back with the soul that enters her body - this time without a jerk, but with a smiling, radiating face. :)

Although it is off-topic, but for many years that I was a BK, the same old set of BK songs used to be played before and after the entry of Avyakt BapDada in Gulzar Dadi's body every time. (Ham ud kay chaley jaaen us pyarey say vatan may ... Come, let us fly to that lovely abode) :D

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by fluffy bunny » 07 Nov 2007

He was certainly given the name Brahma right near the beginning ... before they name checked or illustrated there being any God or Shiva entering him.

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Post by andrey » 07 Nov 2007

If Godfather Shiva used to enter someone else in the begining to name Brahma Baba - Brahma, and at the same He enters Brahma Baba there would be two Gods.

He used to enter Brahma Baba later from Karachi. We don't have Shiva's name in the literature of the beginning, because we don't have the recordings of what ShivBaba has narrated in the beginning (through the one he entered). We only have materials through Brahma Baba's at the time Shiva used not to enter him. That's why there is only mention God Brahma.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 07 Nov 2007

Unfortunately, we really don't know any of that yet ... have we had ANY simple evidence to support the Narain Shewakram theory yet?

I could believe they destroyed any that did exist. I am still wondering what they were "sworn to secrecy" about. But Karachi was before 1950 ... so according to the Advanced knowledge, was he entering BOTH Shewkram and Kripalani (and the other mediums)?

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Post by andrey » 07 Nov 2007

No, He used not enter both. The things form the beginning were not recorded at all. What they used to bury in Karachi were only things from Karachi or through early Brahma Baba (without Shiv).

Please, note my assumptions.

In the Murli it is said that "the way to recognise my entering is that i narrate knowledge", and also that "Murlis have commenced through Karachi."

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Post by fluffy bunny » 07 Nov 2007

andrey wrote:The things form the beginning were not recorded at all.
The human beings existed. They had/still have relatives. He was a successful businessman and apparently Lekhraj Kirpalani's sleeping partner. There will be records and accounts of them.
  • ... IF anyone cares to look.
My feeling is that we are afraid to look because to look might contradict further what we have been told is true. I understand how upsetting that might be to our faith but, ultimately, it will take us a step closer to salvation and realization.

"Baba is true because Baba tells us he is true ..." is not a good place to invest one's faith.

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Post by andrey » 08 Nov 2007

Since you don't have faith you don't need care protecting it. So you are our saviour.

The proof is that there used to be some extraordinary happening in the beginning of the Yagya and if from the Murli it is proved that at that time ShivBaba used not enter Brahma Baba, then although many got attracted to Brahma Baba, the secret power used to be elsewhere. That's why in the Murli it is said that "People believed that miracles are of Krishna, but they were of Prajapita"

Who he was (Prajapita), we don't know. We know who is he now.

I inderstood it is different truth we look for. Whilst you may be looking for the truth available in the court (avalable for centuries away in the past), there is another spiritual truth that we'll not find finding this mundane truth. You may be interested to know his name, now much he earned, who were his wife and children, to find photo etc., but will this satisfy our spiritual pursuits and answer our eternal questions who am i where i have come form wher i go etc. These are different, do you agree? We look for something unique. These spiritual questions can also have definite answers in form of truth, which cannot be proved in mundane way. Do you agree?

We don't care to look, because we don't look for these things.

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Post by paulkershaw » 08 Nov 2007

Andrey when you write 'we' don't care to look, I hope you're speaking for yourself, because I have interest in finding out ... and I care.

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Post by arjun » 08 Nov 2007

ex-l wrote:The human beings existed. They had/still have relatives. He was a successful businessman and apparently Lekhraj Kirpalani's sleeping partner. There will be records and accounts of them ... IF anyone cares to look.
Yes, it would be interesting to know more details about Dada Lekhraj's partner from any of his relatives, especially his children, if they are alive today.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by fluffy bunny » 08 Nov 2007

andrey wrote:We don't care to look, because we don't look for these things.
It would greatly strengthen the PBK case ... and be genuinely interesting for many.

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Post by john » 09 Nov 2007

paulkershaw wrote:Andrey when you write 'we' don't care to look, I hope you're speaking for yourself, because I have interest in finding out ... and I care.
I strongly agree, I think the 'we' in this case is just Andrey.

You can fool some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time. Andrey own up that really your 'we' is an 'I' and let others speak for themselves.

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Post by andrey » 13 Nov 2007

PBK case is strong for it does not rest on any human. Surely i may speak for myself only. The point was that if we search for the Supreme Soul we could find him (indicate him) through what he says and does. We should watch this to guess. Then this is interesting. Whatever others say he says and does is also interesting, from the point of view - it gives information about the attitude of the speaker. If this is our point of interest and nothing more. It is said, "we degrade on listening heard/narrated stories".

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Post by fluffy bunny » 13 Nov 2007

andrey wrote:PBK case is strong for it does not rest on any human.
Heading off topic really because, a) it does, Virendra Dev Dixit and b) we do not know that it is non-human, we can only invest our faith "in advance" of the knowlege. And just because some being is disincarnate (I am not arguing against that), it does not mean he is God or enlightened.

All the same Andrey, it underlines to me that you are putting blind faith before knowledge, and that knowledge of the facts can only strengthen one's position, e.g. most BKs don't even know his name and that he existed, nor the Golden Circle and others. Its sounds to me like, "I don't want to look in case in brings into question Virendra Dev Dixit or what I believe in".

So back on topic, the said to be sleeping partner Shewak Ram and his family. Any leads?

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