BK concept of "Destruction"

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Post by howiemac » 16 Aug 2006

amaranthine wrote:I really don't think you can explain The Cycle with current scientific knowledge
I agree with this. Until the world of science acknowledges the existence of spirit, i.e. the life force, intertwined with matter, then science is stumbling about in the dark (and bound up in ropes of prejudice, and wearing blinkers to boot..).
My belief is that it is human consciousness that creates the physical reality and so because of this such things as deep space probes etc do not have to return to their metal ore in the ground and indeed matter could be viewed as being fluid
Yes - matter is energy, and so can become fluid, and can be dispersed and reformed in different forms - this all happens through spiritual power, the true collective will of souls. We have created our own illusions and we can recreate them.

I suspect ex-l is underestimating the power of the unfettered soul, and is perhaps getting mired in Maya... :wink:
I also believe that one of the roles of BKs is to reveal to the scientists the power of (soul) consciousness in order to pique their interest in this area of science so finally they are inspired to discover the theories that would explain all of this.
Somebody has to do it!
When Baba says such things in the Murlis that all the dead bodies will provide excellent manure, I take this as a pointer to not be attached to the body
I am with you here too - it is a mistake to take all Murli statements literally - Brahma Baba has always been fond of hyperbole and metaphor, and uses them to make deep points in a simple and powerful manner. I am sure this works a treat on the eastern mind, but western rationalism tends to miss the point.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 16 Aug 2006

amaranthine wrote:I really don't think you can explain The Cycle with current scientific knowledge and feel a little uncomfortable when BKs try to do this. In my opinion looking at The Cycle in this manner can only lead to the conclusion that the knowledge is wrong.

When Baba says such things in the Murlis that all the dead bodies will provide excellent manure, I take this as a pointer to not be attached to the body beceause at the end of the day its just manure, rather than a scientific fact, ie its a symbolic statement. This is how Gyan works for me so please do not flame me for my 'symbolic' opinion.
Not at all. I agree with you here on every step - except that I also believe that a lot more has yet to come out about Gyan.

I think that you are also VERY correct to express your intuitions regarding BK pseudo-science. Sweet humility please. Those magically words, "I just don't know", are worth MUCH more than faking theorem. I also agree with howiemac that there is a much bigger, much more mystical answer to come out about matter and reality but I am still waiting for any BK to get anywhere near it. I don't want to hurt your feelings avyakt7. I know that what you are doing is an effort out of love for your god and that you like the poetry of ideas in those theories. Good science is like art. What I am trying to do is show you ... save you from ... is an even worse humilitation and disservice of what you believe in.

Any real scientists are going to tear you to pieces. I mean this kindly, you are not near real science. Even the likes of Lovelock and all those pop or hippie scientists are not really given the time of day by the sort of real science you are getting into. Getting into the ring with real science is like sparing with Black Belts. You just don't start at the top without a little bit of training. Top marks for trying but you have to go back to the labs, do your mathematically push ups for 7 years and you don't have time. Physics, cosmology ... forget it. Big boys stuff. Billion dollar budgets, department of defence research tie ins.

If channelling Shiva is what your specialism is then, honestly, stick to that and leave the Yadavas to do their thing.

As far as the manure goes ... is it not so easy to turn it on its head and see it as METAPHORICAL? Rotting body-consciousness being the food for soul-consciousness? You guys have a lot to learn from the PBKs about all that kind of stuff. Destruction ... may be the planets that are being destroyed are our egos, our own little worlds, or in the case of the BKWSU, their little world?

BTW, in a hot climate, a human body in an exposed location can be reduced to bones alone in just nine days. [But then you have to deal with the bugs, tooth fillings and stainless steel fake joints ... so you are still stuck].

Anonymous

Post by Anonymous » 17 Aug 2006

I appreciate your advice. I know it is coming out of good faith. My feelings will not get hurt ... however, to each its own. What I see clearly, others cannot, what others see clearly, I cannot. It is just a matter of realities ...

The paper is not meant to be scientific. It is just logic, straight logic out of current scientific theories and most importantly, physics laws. I have not found anybody who is able to tell me why those ideas are wrong, not even a dispute...why the logic is not correct. I had a lot of "that is crazy," "You and your God.." "you better do something else," "that is not science." etc ... the "put down stuff".. as an explanation of why something is not scientific. Even well known scientist had to put up with a lot because no one was able "to see" or did not want to see their ideas at the time. Just human nature. Everyone has an opinion, whether they know the subject or not, everyone has an opinion ... It is not surprising, some even dispute God.

Oh, BTW, before I forget, I just wanted to share some links as to what "real scientist" are saying these days ... enjoy!

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/cosmology-02c.html
http://www.physics.princeton.edu/~steinh/dm2004.pdf
http://www.zulenet.com/VladimirDimitrov/pages/time.html

Best wishes.

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Post by bansy » 17 Aug 2006

avyakt7 wrote:I appreciate your advice. I know it is coming out of good faith. My feelings will not get hurt.....some even dispute God.
I agree, we all look at things in a different perspective. As all of them have a matter of truth, since all are God's children. We wouldn't be here if not for the truth.

Nice links, thanks. Though I admit I jumped straight to the end of the Princeton essay and found it still too difficult for me :cry: Anyway, going back....

Even in a short space of time, there are divisions in the brahmin community, BK, PBK and souls claiming themselves to be ShivBaba (as exPBKs). What or who is going to unite the whole of humanity, if not via the brahmin community ? One of the aims for brahmins is to "merge their sanskars". But then comes the dispute of God, which most brahmins seem to agree is Shiva, and the Chariot of God, which is still debateable.

So the party (a study group per se), BK, PBK or otherwise, who understand the Knowledge and are able to reveal the Father are the topnotch brahmins, since all of us love God with all of us experiencing God differently and personally. The merging of sanskars includes the merging of the understanding from all brahmins. That's my view. It even includes science. Yesterday's BK morning Murli 15 Aug 2006 Revised Sakar Murli says "Destruction takes place with the power of science", so science plays a huge part too and has the final say in the Drama.

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Poincaré's grave of 6 Billion

Post by fluffy bunny » 17 Aug 2006

avyakt7 wrote:each its own. What I see clearly, others cannot ... it is just a matter of realities ... It is just logic, straight logic out of current scientific theories and most importantly, physics laws. I have not found anybody who is able to tell me why those ideas are wrong, not even a dispute...why the logic is not correct.
OK. I will tell you where you are wrong and where you went wrong. Excuse my directness. We are not talking about subjective issues here, so don't try and reduce the argument to those. We are talking about God's [allegedly] objective versions, are we not? You came onto this forum - and had a hack at the BKWSU Wikipedia article - attempting to edit out the BK concept of "DESTRUCTION". [I came across your work on the Satanist, Vexen Crabtree's webpages and elsewhere. You had your article on Cyclic Time removed from the Wikipedia, right?].
  • By setting yourself up as a BK, you are representing an organization and so you need to be conscious of what reflection, what service or disservice you are doing to that organization - or the god [ allegedly] behind it.
I am challenging you because you represent an element within the BKWSU, a kind of BK, that wants to whitewash away for the general public, uncomfortable facts, such as Destruction.

To do so, those sorts of BKs - which is increasingly is meaning the highest and most public face of the BKWSU - are and have to become increasingly dishonest and "tricky". This is entirely contrary to Gyan and Brahmin Principles. You sit there writing is no such things as "Destruction" and even the next moment, Didi Bansy proved a current Murli quote from God Shiva discussion "Destruction". How does that feel?
  • How difficult is it to get the Truth out of you and why? I mean this question, it is not rhetorical.
Let us discuss the why? Let us discuss your real and honest feelings about all this. The conflict you feel within. OK. Cut the waffle. You, me and the rest of the Forum all know that God Shiva and the BKWSU predicts that Russia and America are going to have a Nuclear war. Right or wrong? Unless you are going to play the game by the rules - AND BE HONEST - there is no progress. I am asking you for a specific reason. Do the Murlis, does the BKWSU teach Nuclear War between CCCP/USSR/Russia and America? To be honest, I never stated that I did not believe in a Cyclic time. Indeed, you never asked, you just presumed. You committed a typical BK crime of running your own tape recording - the mental tape recording your replay to attempt to re-programme yourself - presuming a negative of a non-BK.
  • I asked you the questions ; prove, explain the BKWSU theory [not duck and dive from the questions by throwing up non-sequitors]. Address the anomolies within the BKWSU model.
It is a monumental leap from Poincaré to an atomically identically repeating 5,000 year Cycle. Poincaré specifically states that it is not identical and he is a lot smarter than we are. Ditto, God Shiva and the BKWSU only predict a Nuclear War, a few sinking continents minus service centres and a civil war in India. You are going to find it hard to work out a mathematic equation to square that. So, I am still asking you again if Destruction is destruction as stated here, or a total cosmic Destruction as these scientists are pointing to?

If you want to polish your scientific beliefs, I might even help you. The science of the Cycle, destruction and creation, transformation is very interesting. BUT we need to start from a point of honest. This is about Dharna and Seva first not science.

The Cycle is one thing, how can we settle the yukti of promoting Gyan and Brahmin Principles by acting entirely contrary to Gyan and Brahmin Principles?

OK. One last thing ... first, here is a quote you left on a webpage on 20 June 2006 ;[ Just what you were doing on a Full Contact Poker website, I will leave you to explain to your sister-in-charge! :shock: ]
avyakt7 wrote:7) We, humans will destroy our planet. We have the means to do it now. There are some signs of this already. Natural disasters will increase in force around the globe, water will soon become scarce, wars and conflicts will thrive and there is nothing we can do about it. Our technology “know how” have created the atomic bomb. Many countries have them. The bombs will be used.
Why edit out Destruction from the high profile Wikipedia article - and deny it here - but then promote or support it and contradict yourself elsewhere? Something is not right.

But it is worth discussing because it is a problem most Western BKs have.

Anonymous

Post by Anonymous » 17 Aug 2006

Dear Brother,
It seems that this conversation has gone a bit too far. So, Am I guilty of polluting people's mind? what is the veredict? It seems like I know you from somewhere ... let me think... "destruction vs. transformation" remember that?
ex-l wrote:The conflict you feel within. OK. Cut the waffle.
I wonder what your feelings are. As far as I remember I have not done any wrong to you. My role is to share what I have discovered to be true with those who are searching. Some may agree, some may not. It is up to them to decide.

Baba has always taught us about feelings. To have good wishes and good feelings for all. Everyone has a different role ... no one is to blame. That is the name of the game ... of course, you may see it differently.

Have a good day.

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Post by worldpeace » 17 Aug 2006

The BKWSU is happy to suggest a neat downwards entropic decline in the lesson of The Cycle but no inclination of how the Cosmo - because it must be the entire Cosmos and not just Planet Earth - suddenly pops back up to it original state. By the Laws of Thermodynamics this would require an influx of energy from somewhere else and we have not squared up how soul power or Shiva Power translates to material energy and why neither would degrade energetically over time.
I faintly remember Baba [Avyakt BapDada] speaking about the cosmic dance (cleansing) of Shiva. This one is mentioned in the Hindu Mythology also. Could some BK/PBK throw more light on this....

If this is to happen then nobody is to remain on Earth on that time. But that would contradict PBK's stance of transformation in this same life..

Or is this cosmic dance related to the Destruction, wherein the SatYugi souls alone survive??

Peace

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Post by fluffy bunny » 17 Aug 2006

worldpeace wrote:I faintly remember Baba[Avyakt BapDada] speaking about the cosmic dance (cleansing) of Shiva. This one is mentioned in the Hindu Mythology also. Could some BK/PBK throw more light on this....
Excellent constructive question. What does the "Cosmic Dance" mean?
avyakt7 wrote:It seems like I know you from somewhere ... let me think... "destruction vs. transformation" remember that?
I am sorry, no idea. If it was a thread on another forum, you will have to be specific. But I think I have only discussed these matters on this or the xBKChat Forum.
avyakt7 wrote:I wonder what your feelings are. As far as I remember I have not done any wrong to you.
Wrong? I'd say that you are showing contempt to me and disrepect to the general principles of discussion by not answering a simple, fair and reasonable question. [Interesting new thread, does Shiva teach about feelings? I would say no actually, he teaches about subtle states much higher]. To be honest, this stuff does not engage me in feelings, it is purely intellectual. But I would love to be able to get into this in depth and you are holding the discussion back. The fact that I am willing to attempt to engage with you, help you address the conflicts, difficulties and contradictions you are experiencing, shows that I care enough to want to try.

So, I would say the virtues I am expressing are compassion, enthusiasm and courage. I would say the Yoga I am practising, by the BK definition, is Buddhi Yoga. I love churning, "spinning the cycle". Let's spin it. Is that not Yogi enough? All that I am asking is for you to be open and honest about the BKWSU and its teachings. Then we can move on. I am asking you an honest question so that I can understand what the current state of the teachings are. And then we can discuss them. You, yourself, are teaching Destruction elsewhere.
  • • Simple question, is it still America versus Russia?
It would be an honest [Western or educated] BK that speaks openly about the truth we/they all have about how difficult they find living with the teachings of BK Destruction, the difficulties in telling others, the difficulties they had/have with the 5,000 years, the difficulties in dealing with the anomalies it throws up - and how it effects one's life.
  • But perhaps if folks started to be honest then Shiva or Brahma will answer them.
The "Truth" is, it is a difficult, incomplete concept that causes individuals difficulties. There is a lot of instutitonal denial and suppression about it. And what does denial and suppression do for "feelings". I would like to move on to "how it affects one's life".

Anonymous

Post by Anonymous » 17 Aug 2006

Dear soul,
Wrong? I'd say that you are showing contempt to me and disrepect to the general principles of discussion by not answering a simple, fair and reasonable question. [Interesting new thread, does Shiva teach about feelings? I would say no actually, he teaches about subtle states much higher].

To be honest, this stuff does not engage me in feelings, it is purely intellectual. But I would love to be able to get into this in depth and you are holding the discussion back. The fact that I am willing to attempt to engage with you, help you address the conflicts, difficulties and contradictions you are experiencing, shows that I care enough to want to try.
No comments. I think that is the end of "my part" on this thread. Wah drama!

Best.

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Post by worldpeace » 18 Aug 2006

Baba [Avyakt BapDada] has said in a number of Murlis that Destruction is a test. People can ask Baba about the test paper only when they are ready for the test. That Destruction hasn't come/begun is what pushes a Purusharthi. From what I feel, we are far from what Baba says "ready"... except for a few.
ex-l wrote:Excellent constructive question. What does the "Cosmis Dance" mean?
http://www.templenet.com/Tamilnadu/chiddance.html

There are different views on this - one is that Shiva (Nataraj form) dances when He is happy. The other is, He dances when He is angry with the world and, when He opens His third eye (the eye of wisdom). In BK world, this was explained as the period when Shiva purifies the entire universe, all the elements to its pristine state. I guess this is related to Destruction ...

I would definitely like a BK/PBK comment on this.

Peace

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Post by arjun » 19 Aug 2006

Om Shanti. The dance of destruction, i.e. Tandav Nritya, which is associated with Shiv-Shankar in the path of worship (Bhaktimarg) is actually a dance of knowledge that is narrated through the medium of Shankar by Father Shiv.

The versions of Shiv spoken through Shankar are like the arrows of knowledge, which pierce through the heart of wicked Brahmin souls and kill them. That is the reason why the BKs have banished the new medium of God Shiv and the PBKs ever since His revelation in 1976, the year declared by Avyakt BapDada as the year of Revelation/Destruction.
With regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by sparkal » 19 Aug 2006

Destruction reffers to the destruction of our weaknesses.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 19 Aug 2006

sparkal wrote:Destruction reffers to the destruction of our weaknesses.
Yes, but we are dealing the obvious BK concept of global Destruction here. Trying to find a more complete picture of what it is and how it works. There may well be a connection between the internal destruction and external Destruction. I have no idea how to prove that but it is the hip idea with the movement.

Despite the attempts to re-write it all as "Transformation", the BKWSU teach an infantile picture of sinking continents, Nuclear War - now denied by their Chief of Global PR - and civil strife.

I am trying to find a BK that will address the anomalies within their model because if they are encouraing folks to give up their lives on the basis of this faith, them they had better be able to back it up.

Personally, I don't dismiss cyclic forms but can only see the model working if the entire cosmos is destroyed and recreated. I was hoping and waiting for a BK to come forward and suggest that. I saw the Dance of Shiva - in this form - as the dance of the entire universe as it disassembles itself around the final "impure" - to use the BK term - human consciousness; and then re-assembles its self around the primal "pure" - ditto - human consciousness.

The point I wanted to get to with BK avyakt7 - before he ran away scared - was that his models, and quoted science, did not seem to include the relationship between consciousness and matter. Nor account for the influx or release of material energy required. Of course, equally so, I do not dismiss even more mystical explanations of the "material Universe is only a project" model, I think I understand howiemac was exploring.

At least the thread did one good things, and that was completely pull the rug from under the feet of avyakt7. He had been saying here and on the Wikipedia article that there was no destruction, only a politically correct "Transformation" whilst on other forums had being saying that the bombs were ready and were going to be used and the Earth destroyed.

Thanks to that and the quotes from Shiva, no other BK came come along and claim the BKs do not teach Destruction now! [ Even if their Chief of Global PR is denying to the press and media ... ]

Anonymous

Spiritual knowledge is subtle knowledge.

Post by Anonymous » 20 Aug 2006

Words are problematic. Words represent different things for different individuals. Let’s say the word “apple.” What type of apple you have in your mind? Is that a red apple? How big? Where it is located? What is its texture? Form? etc.

Many words that we need to define in order to speak about the “same apple.” We go into expansion in order to try to explain a simple item. Expansion requires further words to explain more things about one idea. To understand spiritual knowledge there is a need to be in the spiritual realm. Many times we try to understand spiritual knowledge from a physical awareness. Let’s say we want to talk about “Time.” Only if you have spiritual awareness you can understand that time does not exist. In spiritual awareness you may go even further than mere understanding and actually experience it.

Another word, “Destruction”. In which awareness are you expressing this word? What is the message that you are trying to convey? In a physical level destruction means according to wordnet; “the termination of something by causing so much damage to it that it cannot be repaired or no longer exists”. However, in a spiritual level there is no destruction because we are eternal ... moreover, even in the physical level there is no destruction because matter transforms and it cannot be destroyed. Once the spiritual knowledge of The Cycle comes in, then we see that everything is eternal, it is just a matter of “time”. (Paradox). Words have meaning according to “time”, “reference”, “conditions” and other situations. The awareness or consciousness of the audience is never the same either, there is always interpretation ... Words.

When someone writes or say something, we are “interpreting” what the author wants to convey. As explained above, there is a need of a plethora of words to accurately explain just a single word. Our mind interprets, analyzes, dissects , etc looking for a meaning.

Someone with a “linear” type of thinking, who only knows about “ones” or “zeros”, who believes that there is one way which is “right” and the rest “wrong” is incapable of grasping the spiritual significance of anything. The mind is caught up in dualities. Science is like that, even though it has an utilitarian value. Science cannot understand paradoxes. Spirituality goes beyond that. There is the word. There is the meaning which the author meant in his writing, there is the interpretation and there is the secret ... the hidden secret, the hidden meaning.

That is why knowledge is an experience. You understand knowledge when you practice it, when you make it yours. You do not understand knowledge when it becomes just a matter of words, something to chat about, an intellectual exercise. When you make an experience of what you hear or read, you understand. When you dissect and analyze, you are not listening.

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Re: Spiritual knowledge is subtle knowledge.

Post by fluffy bunny » 20 Aug 2006

avyakt7 wrote:Science cannot understand paradoxes. Spirituality goes beyond that.
Of course, you won't reveal what scientific qualification you actually have, or have not, but I will quote a real scientist to counter you, chosen at random;

"A paradox is a sort of logical swindle that leads to a surprising or perhaps incorrect conclusion. It's a chain of plausible physical arguments that lead to an unphysical conclusion ... Paradoxes occupy a very special place in the history of science. They have, on occasion, produced an important scientific breakthrough by leading to a new way of thinking about the universe." John G. Cramer Professor of Physics, University of Washington; Experimental Physicist, Research in Ultra-Relativistic Heavy Ion Physics at CERN and Brookhaven; Theoretical Physicist, Foundations of Quantum Mechanics, Bose-Einstein Interferometry - with an interest in metaphysics.

I liked this quote because of his definition of a paradox as a "logical swindle".
Someone ... who believes that there is one way which is “right” and the rest “wrong” is incapable of grasping the spiritual significance of anything.
  • So where do Brahma Baba and Shiva Baba and their teachings fit within this model [of one way being right]?
If you can answer this question, I will address what you write properly.

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