Where do we go from here?

Mainly DEDICATED to Ex-BKs.
A neutral forum for congenial discussions and reservations related to the Godly Knowledge between ALL parties.
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proy
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Where do we go from here?

Post by proy » 24 Nov 2007

Hi Folks,

From personal feeling and a lot of talk with friends I have seen that we need to have a space to discuss where we want this forum to go now.

The domain name is safe. We are solid. Let's get on with what we do best.

My own points would be:-
  • 1. Information. We are an information source for those caught up in the BK world who have not been told anything like the true full story.

    2. BK forum members. We are getting more of these all the time. I know some of them personally and it is a good trend. If they are on the forum for genuine reasons then I welcome that. I am also happy to hear from BKs who do not agree with me, just so long as it is open fair discussion and not just repitition of one question or point of view. I am thinking here of stuff like the SweetChill incident, which I am sure the BKs here are also not happy with.

    3. PBKs. I am very happy with the PBKs being here on the forum. I admire Arjun, and Button Slammer is my friend. These are sound good people.

    4. I really want to hear from others. This forum is here for the members, old and new. So please post your views and ideas here so we can know what to do in this bright future.
:D

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future of forum

Post by sparkal » 24 Nov 2007

People are used to having leaders to tell them what direction to go in, they are not used to being asked what they want, let alone their wishes being acted upon.

You may therefore have to give souls some time to grasp and digest your point here. People are hushed, taught that it is wrong to express the self. They are taught to express, if anything, some false mask which is to be created in order to keep others happy. Where is the self respect in this? If we all lie, we will create a false world, a world of lies.

With regards to the forum, let us therefore create a place that people can come and express how they feel, and it doesn't have to be negative feelings, just to keep others happy.

The internet/forum itself is the future, some may not have begun to use it. Where it goes beyond that may be the end of the internet and communication, or is that too Destruction based. Perhaps the internet is only the beginning, as in "Matrix" (and no bro Neo, we don't want any pills, especially the blue one.

The world, on the surface at least, those who rule it, or try to, is in a very bad way and I don't know how much more I can take, I really don't. We really, really need some meaningful change now and I cannot see where it is going to come from. Yes, yes, we have heard it all, about how they will do each other etc. I want to hear something else.
  • Silence even.
That is my expression today.

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eromain
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Post by eromain » 24 Nov 2007

Hi all,

I feel that we should take notice of the many "middleground" xbks and BKs who are telling me that the site is too aggressive and not balanced enough.

I, personally, feel that the language we sometimes use is excessive and frequently detracts from valid criticisms. Sometimes we cross the line into insulting language and I, personally, feel that we should give ourselves no more permission to insult a religion than we do to insult a person.

I believe that the site as a whole should be pro-BKs, just as it should be pro-PBKs and pro-XBKs. The BKWSU has its faults certainly but characterising it as one step above the Nazis is ridiculous. My fear is that its faults and failings drive people to us but that our language will drive those very same people away.

A victory for free speech has occurred recently but free speech requires restraint and discipline. Yes, we should express ourselves, but not before we have done the work to phrase our words in a way that does others an injustice.

Nobody is going to listen to us unless they feel that we respect them. And just as we criticise the BKs for an ideology that condemns certain types of people to second class citizenship, we need to be more careful that we, through our careless use of language, don't do the same to them.

I believe in criticism with good intent, I think it is a positive thing, and if I am doing something in a less than optimal way, I am grateful for criticism no matter how poorly it is made - as long as the intention is to help. If we have complaints against the yugya, we should be trying to help them to do better.

I realise, and completely agree, that as part of their exit process people need to vent. I completely support that and I completely support this venue as a place where BKs and XBKs can express their anger and do so immoderately. Anger is not taboo here as it is there. But such expression should not be in common forums in my opinion. They should be in restricted areas. And when one or two people are having a really strong moan about something or somebody, perhaps they can do that via their own emails or pm system.

It takes most people many years before they have undone the programming enough to be able to see clearly how poorly behaved senior BKs sometimes are. To hit someone who hasn't gone through that process with the full force of their Seniors failings is unfair. They simply cannot hear us. But the solution is not to start shouting. We have to speak more gently.

It is a sophisticated and mature thing that we are trying to create here and there are some combustible forces flowing around which it will take us time to develop skill with. But I personally feel that this site, without losing its unique voice as a critical commentary on the yugya, must also find a bit more love for it at the same time. Slap me around in the head for saying it but we have to find a bit more love for them all.

:)
Eug

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Post by joel » 24 Nov 2007

Hi Eugene,

You write with compassion. Twenty years or so since meeting you in Madhuban, I can hear in your writing the gentle tone of voice that I remember. Your words carry added weight of your years of work to awaken the BK Seniors to their responsibilities regarding the care and protection of children.

I agree with you that anyone without an interest in the issues at hand might be turned off by the angry tone, bitter words, sarcasm, and severe judgments in some of our posters' articles with regard to the beliefs and practices of the Yagya, and the behavior of the BK Seniors. Many BKs - even those concerned with the issues raised by posters to this forum - believe that such discussions should take place in a civil, respectful tone.

I would like for these BKs to be able to share in and benefit from our discussions. If we accept that these individuals will not feel comfortable reading or writing in some of our more flamogenous fora, I wonder whether it would be practical to create (and moderate) a "friendly forum" where the participants would agree to maintain a respectful tone throughout, and to avoid hostile, inflammatory language, even (and especially) when serious issues are involved.

On the other hand, we may ask if it is necessary for us to protect these BKs. After all, strong feelings, judgments, words, etc. are a part of life. I know a couple that while loving each other, tend to disagree in rather strong language. At first their language bothered me ... now I understand that that is just their way of communicating.

Is our aggregate intention here just to communicate (come who may) or do we seek to appeal to a particular group of potential readers/participants?

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Post by bansy » 24 Nov 2007

As the next step, I suggest that all titles are removed so that there are no ex-BKs, PBKs, BKs, etc.

Then maybe there will be some respect given.

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Post by arjun » 24 Nov 2007

Om Shanti.

Thanks to Proy for starting this thread and to Eugene for expressing some valuable feelings. I agree with the purport of Eugene's post. It is for every member to decide himself/herself how he/she wants to proceed from here.

Anger against the BKWSU as an institution can be understandable, but we must realize that BKs are also human beings/souls first. Whatever we write here about the BKs will be read/gauged by the BKs as human beings first and then as BKs. So, I hope that we will be able to connect to the BKs at the heart to heart level rather than just at the level of intellect.

A balance of :shock: and :) = :|

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by mr green » 24 Nov 2007

Yes, I agree with all ...

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Post by bkdimok » 25 Nov 2007

Om Shanti. Glad to see your progress of compassion, humility and right understanding. Wish you to continue in this direction.

Shiv through Shankar

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Post by fluffy bunny » 25 Nov 2007

Potentially, this is one of the most important topics we have discussed here and I think it is great that we are discussing it in the open rather than in some secretive, un-minuted Seniors' meeting. I think this, above all, is the positive example that we are giving. Look, folks, here it all is ... the BK Barracudas having lunch with one another and discussing their strategy for the whole world to see.

I think Bansy has made an important point. The BKs on the Wikipedia, who apparently are their Internet PR team, are out to make something so concrete of "The ex-BKs" ... as if it, or a we, actually exists as something uniquely definable or co-ordinated. We have not had the problems we thought we would with BK/PBK infighting, so perhaps we can all drop the labels and just become individuals?

I think sparkal also strikes a chord and I hope the victory in the domain name department signifies a victory over the authoritarian types that wish to use force to rule others lives. Its an old school approach, not to say Public school!

I, honestly, cannot see the problem here ... or at least, if there is a problem, then I think ours (or specifically mine) is matched and over weighed by tendencies written deeply into the current BKWSU code which may actually not be the final revision of "Gyan" anyway.

What I mean by this is that I, personally, have a hell of a lot less of a problem with profanity and Python-esque depraved wit than I do with the sanctimony, condescension, false piety and super-controlled tone of BKSpeak. I think we are doing the BKs a favour by blazing a new and broad trail for them to follow.

But, I get the issue you are addressing here. It cuts in two ways;
  • firstly, it gives the "school prefect" types a petty excuse NOT to deal with;
    secondly, it is too much of a culture shock for over sensitised BKs.
I do not know how to deal with the divide and I am afraid that it might only be increasing.
eromain wrote:Slap me around in the head for saying it but we have to find a bit more love for them all.
Dare I say it, are we talking about love here ... with or without detachment? Let's get sticky with a juicy attachment for BKs one and all everywhere!

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Post by eromain » 25 Nov 2007

ex-l

To be frank. I find it hard to read the substance of your posting because I am distracted by every derogatory and insulting phrase and insinuation you have peppered your text with.

You refer to BKs or certain groups of BKs with terms such as "secretive", "authoritarian", "santimony", "condascension", "false piety", "over-sensitised". Nowhere do you say anything which might counter- balance all of this. When you acknowledge our/your possible failings you cannot help saying that at least they are worse. There are certain contexts in which some such terms are justified and arguably necessary but surely they are inappropriate in a thread which is partly about showing the BKs a bit more respect.

And I am serious about love. The BKs were part of my life for a long time and for some weird reason they still are. It annoys me that some of their leadership commit actions which I am arrogant enough to think lets the movement down, but equally it annoys me when non-BKs make what appear to me to be gratuitous and lazy insults. In my warped values system. I feel able to criticise them because I care about Raja Yoga. I am still attached to a vision of it which together they and me planted inside me when I was a lot younger.

They knew at the time that what they were planting was not the whole truth. I did not know that. So now if I moan at them about the deception I feel that is justified, but not simply because I feel like venting. That is not a good enough reason. I still love the vision, I still love what it might have been. And I still respect and care enough for people like me who fall in love with such an ideal that i would like to help those who haven't given up. And the Seniors fell in love with the exact same idea. That makes them like me on the deepest level. So who am I to condemn them absolutely?

You more than anyone on this planet has earned the right to criticise them. And I am very grateful for the work you have done. You have done everyone -including them -especially them- a great service. But you also owe them something. And I owe them that same thing.

And everyone else who has criticised them.

And I am sorry to say it buddy and, yes, you can come round and hit me round the head a few times.

WE OWE THEM LOVE

eug

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you in your life's journey. :-)

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Post by tete » 25 Nov 2007

Dear Eugene,

I have the greatest respect for you, for any human being/all humanity, a high respect for the truth and equality. I am an idealist, one that takes things to heart, one that at times people disagree with (that is their right), one that often will take on tasks that take many years to see the light in hopes of serving others and one that at times is asked to go out in public to challenge others (or as an ex-BK put it: "An accusatory angel!").

I have not taken lightly the task of documenting the history of the BKs, especially since I have one in my household that has great fondness/love for many within. At this time take notice that he has no part in this and only recently found out about my part in supporting this site (I believe it is very beneficial to many, from many points of view and independent) due to the legal action, because unlike others I had to come out of the cyber closet to do so. If you want to support an ideal that you believe is right, then often there is a price to be paid. I have no regrets.
Eugene wrote:It annoys me that some of their leadership commit actions which I am arrogant enough to think lets the movement down, but equally it annoys me when non BKs make what appear to me to be gratuitous and lazy insults.
Below is my non-BK position:
Tete 03 May 06

So, I share my story with you about what XBKchat meant to me on a personal intimate way and how I found myself in a shared experience with others who welcomed me even if I wasn’t an official former member, but they understood that I, my child, and extended family had suffered too. It was this universal fellowship that instilled my willingness to share openly and I began to regain control of my life again.
I have always been cognizant of the fact that I have never been a BK and fully understand that I will never understand the experience as you all have and write from my perspective and ask many questions in pms due to this fact. Di and I have different experiences and ones that I believe need viewing/exploring, especially the impact that these experiences have on our families irrespective of the family members who have had direct experience with the BKs.

Those bonds with the experience are very strong, and throughout my marriage they were stronger than any love between us. I say this as truth, my truth, as he wore BapDada’s ring but doesn’t wear a wedding ring. Today, I no longer have a concern about that, nor is it a loss for me (it is not about me), as I realize that he gave his love/commitment to some thing of which you speak of here:
Eugene wrote:I still love the vision, I still love what it might have been. And I still respect and care enough for people like me who fall in love with such an ideal that I would like to help those who haven't given up.
I fully understand what you write here above and I wrote about my position back in May 2006.
Tete 03 May 06

The truth remains in that we need to reach out to one another in order to find the way out, offer respect and more importantly love to those still remaining in as they will need that love if they choose to come out. Forgiveness of hurts can be a healing process too and a truly loving process when we offer our open arms with unconditional love for them to take.
ex-l has his own potion of truth serum and lest I be telling a lie, I will admit that even I have half jumped out of my skin in fear of the truth. Today, I see he was right. Hard pill to take, but true. I did nothing by keeping secrets and perhaps helped to perpetuated a myth. If we know some thing is not true, do we keep quiet?

Every thing I have learned here and at xBKchat.com turned out to be true. At one point I even consulted an attorney to inquire if someone could write about my life. The information was sobering, I bit my lip and had to come to terms with who I married. It wasn’t easy, especially if you go around fighting for FOI. I was caught in the web I held dear.

At one point one high within suggested to my family member that I join the “Official” BK forum, as I could be coming into contact with some unsavory (I can’t remember the term used to be honest) characters in xBKchat.com. I complained that the site was closed/locked. Whala, someone opened it. See what I mean about those bonds. So, I joined.

My first post was a question: "Where are all the big posts or discussions?" That was never posted as it was too Earth shattering of a question. The censorship is truly amazing. So, I came back, to be with all those unsavory characters, some which they knew about and some not. Joel was known (approved of)and Howie, was checked out (approved) and so my BK education was started. He knew you as a child and had fond memories of you ... those bonds again of those early years. And yes, he even met ex-l in London in the early years.

In fairness to the BK forum, I was also banned from xBKchat for doing a post where I said I thought they were being elitist for banning Kevin and in due course mentioned that (I didn’t know about the Deity belief then) I had to deal with a brother in the household who’s job it was to take out the trash. Poof, I was banned. I didn’t know at that time how "Dear" he was to some and what bonds they held. I know now! I was later re-instated.

In fairness to the BK forum again, I was also banned from here in about a week's time, but we won’t go into that one, as it is still in litigation (still arguing the point).

The labels, well that was in part because people like me (non-BKs) would go into BK areas and talk about GOD, thereby confusing people engaged in deep discussion about the knowledge. The labels, don’t restrict anyone, and all members travel about freely with the exception of the Youth Forum. I think I also wasted many e-mails asking for clarifications via pms and later would find that it was PBK points (knowledge) and not BK points being made. Some BKs also got confused and once Howie had to go find some thing out via the PBKs that only "surrendered BKs" knew. I would tell folks I was learning BKism (new language/code). So there was no ill intension behind it and I am happy to see everyone running around free and in free form without restrictions here, even the off shoots that are "Chariots"!

I think I have been courteous and respectful even when faced with some very painful moments. I could have written about many things I know, but haven’t. As I have stated privately I haven’t signed a confidentiality agreement with anyone and don’t intend to. Is this harsh, I think not. It is my right, as it is my life and my experience, just as I will not know what experiences you had as a BK and as an ex-BK except to read about them. Everyone has their truth, their point of view.

I also think ex-l grows on one, a little like algae but eventually you see his truth as beauty. If you look closely, I think he holds BK beliefs dearly, he will often protect its proper context (pure form), he is just an ardent one, that sees the need for transparency, accuracy and in many ways an orthodox theologian on the subject matter. Most religious reformers throughout history have been this way, not to break the religious belief but to find some way to make peace with it or find a new way to express it.
ex-l wrote:11-22-2007: I would love for there to remain a non-commercial, non-state control, non-PR wing to BKWSU, a place where BKs can be free within their own kind; voicing, accepting and exploring.

The commercial, state control, PR wings of BKWSU have to accept that we are not all going to be their devotees, live up to their standards and conform to their image manipulation ... but that we still have a right, as I understand it, to make "our own fortune" in our own way.
In closing I can only say that the BKs are offered no less love, compassion, support or understanding than any other group here. The PBKs used to run around a bit proselytizing on xBKchat, but here I don't think they have a need as they are free and so that tension left when they realized they weren't restricted. The door has always been open to the BKs. Now, it is up to them to walk through the door as many current BKs have done without incident and they seem to be doing just fine. This forum is based after all on mutual support and needs to hold firm to that vision.

Regards,
Tete

P.S. Uddhava, glad to see you posting again, you were dearly missed.
:D.

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Post by howiemac » 26 Nov 2007

Hi guys

I agree that, for the good of this forum and site, we should try to set the highest standards when documenting our experiences and opinions. Yes, we should seek for balance when expressing our views, and yes, we should have respect for the BKs, even when they show little respect for us. Yes, we should forgive and we should love those that have mistreated or misled us. That is spirituality in action.

However, it is not always easy to be so enlightened in our writing, when we are struggling to undo mental and psychic conditioning that we have suffered over many years. We should remember that we chose to accept that input - we embraced what the BKWSU and/or the Murli taught and offered us, and it and should accept responsibility for our own choices and actions. Yes, we can aim for high standards, but we should not be too hard on ourselves when we sometimes fall below these standards.

I would not like to see the freedom of speech that this forum offers being limited by any code of political correctness, or a requirement for politeness. Often it is very necessary and very helpful to be able to voice our feelings, which have been pent up over many years of adhering to rigid dogma - the purging of these feelings in intense and honest posts can be very beneficial, both for those who are thus liberating themselves, and for others who are then encouraged to open up themselves. This forum allows dissension and free debate, and we should preserve that openness and freedom. Honesty and openness are spiritual values, so this too is spirituality in action.

For the future, I hope to see, as Bansy suggests, and ex-l seconds, less emphasis on labels, and for the cooperation and communication between those who use this site to keep increasing. And yes, that includes the BKWSU. I find it sad that they should have brought such an ill advised legal action against this site. A little more enlightenment among those who claim to be a "Spiritual University" could have saved a great expenditure of time and money that could otherwise have been used in far more worthwhile ways.

I am very grateful to those benevolent souls (who know who they are) who have protected the rights of the rest of us. I am sure that others will also stand and be counted if and when required. I am hoping that such collaborative spirit will not be required to defend our freedom, but can be put to more positive uses. Hopefully the protagonists are realizing that we won't be silenced and we won't lie down.

The internet has brought freedom of expression to us all, and this site shines a beacon of light that shows the way ahead for the BK movement. They will not be able to beat us, so hopefully they will, in due course, join us, and be friends.

As Tete says:
tete wrote:The door has always been open to the BKs. Now, it is up to them to walk through the door.
And hey, Tete, it is great to see you posting here once more :) Keep it coming ... 8).

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Post by john » 26 Nov 2007

I would like to see a dialogue opened up between the BKSWU and the forum, where answers to questions are posted on the forum.

I hope that they will one day (soon) realise that there is a deep need for some to understand what has gone on throughout the history of the BKSWU and our collective voices cannot just be swept under the carpet or dismissed as mere antagonists.

I feel all BKs, PBKs, ex-BKs are owed serious explanations.

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Post by primal.logic » 26 Nov 2007

Well I just love democracy. Eugene and ex-l are both completely right. Someone mentioned balance. But perhaps not all in one posting or string. I like that Eugene expresses positive sentiments, which I am quite reserved about - I still balk at the BKSWU's continued deception and manipulation that it justifies as a valid means to an end - increasing their membership. And ex-l is nearly always right even if considered severe.

To let you all know - Charlie Hogg came to see me on Saturday. I received an email from Jayanti informing me that "duty of care and departure policy" are now on the agenda. This is very good news, if it is true. Charlie's point was that the BKs are serious, that it has struck a nerve in the bk community. I am told working groups for various areas of consideration are on the job. Let us hope that they actually bring something useful to the table.

Personally, I am pushing for 'permission to leave', 'assistance in leaving', and an Ombudsman to maintain independence in the assistance program. Also very high on the list is 'responsible management of mental health care issues'.

None of this would be happening if it wasn't for this website!!! Thanks to all.

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Where do we go from here?

Post by abrahma kumar » 26 Nov 2007

proy wrote:From personal feeling and a lot of talk with friends I have seen that we need to have a space to discuss where we want this forum to go now. The domain name is safe. We are solid. Let's get on with what we do best ...
hi all & thanks for sharing your visions of progress beyond "here". Looks like we will also have to go everywhere with the Power to Face.

The BKWSO have applied for a new Trademark. We are solid; so let's get on with what we do best.

regards
abek

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