Who is the God of Gita - Krishna, Ram or Shiva baba?

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the greatest atrocity

Post by button slammer » 25 Dec 2007

arjun wrote:Today, as I was churning on Shivsena's concept of RamShivbaba, a thought occured to me that just as BKs put 'pitashri' (i.e. Brahma Baba/Dada Lekhraj/soul of Golden Aged Krishna) before 'ShivBaba Yaad hai' in the Murlis and thus committed the blunder of making the son (i.e. Krishna) the God of Gita instead of ShivBaba, in the same way, are we not witnessing a phenomenon in the Confluence Age where the soul of Ram is being placed ahead of ShivBaba and being presented as the God of Gita instead of ShivBaba????

It may be noted that ShivBaba has never used the term 'RamShivbaba' in the Sakar Murlis or Avyakt Vanis or in the clarification Murlis.
Yes, for months I've thought the same thing, what can be said? It seems so basic, but ShivBaba (via Virendra Dev Dixit) has described it as 'the greatest atrocity/blunder .' See link; Religio-Political World History, Geo. & Philosophy - The Tree (bottom right). The relationship is based on recognition and co-operation, both in the Confluence Age and the 63 births. The cycle continues to spin. Ooom Shaanti :).

Hey, next year is the year of 'effort over a long period' coming to a close. It's a bonus year. whatever you gotta do, do it, and make it everlasting. Anyone care to join me in a deep and sustained way let me know. Am planning a world tour. Let's do it. :lol:.
shivsena wrote:Shrimat cannot be there during the shooting period; neither the Murlis contain any Shrimat, nor the cassettes (Advanced Knowledge) contain any Shrimat; Murlis of ShivBap contain the knowledge in code form (which every soul decodes according to his intellect) and this in turn decides his fate for 84 births; Advanced Knowledge is just pure Bhakti taught by mayavi Krishna and the soul who realises this fact becomes mayajeet numberwise and becomes eligible to come in rosary bead of 108; Shrimat is given to only 108 souls, who will learn RajYoga from Ramshivbaba in future; Shrimat is not for praja souls; this is what I feel.
Arjun wrote:Today, as I was churning on Shivsena's concept of RamShivbaba, a thought occured to me that just as BKs put 'pitashri' (i.e. Brahma Baba/Dada Lekhraj/soul of Golden Aged Krishna) before 'ShivBaba Yaad hai' in the Murlis and thus committed the blunder of making the son (i.e. Krishna) the God of Gita instead of ShivBaba, in the same way, are we not witnessing a phenomenon in the Confluence Age where the soul of Ram is being placed ahead of ShivBaba and being presented as the God of Gita instead of ShivBaba????
VCD NO.364, AUDIO CASSETTE NO.850, DATED 7.12.05, BANGALORE mini-Madhubans

CLARIFICATION OF NIGHT CLASS, Murli DATED 21.1.67 AND 23.1.67,

Ref. No.VCD-364-Part-II-Eng.,
So, it is also fitted into the intellect that – the Father, who transforms a man to Narayan, a woman to Lakshmi must have certainly existed; but what is the mistake that has been committed? Hm? (Someone said – Krishna, the God of Gita ...) Yes. In the knowledge of Gita, in that knowledge of Gita, the name of Krishna has been inserted as the name of the Creator. Well, the name of child Krishna has been inserted; so, it is like an abuse (gaali). The God Father has also been humiliated. The child has been made to sit as the husband of the mother. A cruelty (zulma) has been done. When such an atrocity (zulma) takes place on the God Father also and when such an atrocity takes place on the mother also, then this world becomes a terrible hell (ghor nark).

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Post by bansy » 26 Dec 2007

Sakar Murli 25/03/00
"It says in the Gita : God speaks! However, no human beings can be God. Krishna too is a human being, but with divine virtues."

Sakar Murli 07/01/00
"Who is God of the Gita ? It is easy to remember Krishna because he is corporeal. The incorporeal Father says: Constantly remember Me alone."

Sakar Murli 26/04/00
"Some call him Rama and some call Him Shiva. People have become confused because ten different names have been given to the One. They gave whatever name entered their mind. My real name is Shiva".

Sakar Murli 05/02/00
"God's name is Shiva."

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Post by shivsena » 26 Dec 2007

pbkdivya wrote: NO. Only 8 will become bap-samaan.
All 108 souls are called rudramala souls so they become like rudra bap numberwise; 8 souls are those who take scholarship.
How are you going to see Ram's nirakari stage when Rambap hasn't attained his 100% incorporeal stage yet?
It is said in Murlis that "doorandeshi bacche doorandeshi bap ko pechante hain"(visionary children only can recognise the incorporeal stage of Ram's soul); praja quality souls do not have this power.
How can you relate to Ramshivbaba when as per your views, the soul of Ram has given his body to Krishna?
It is very easy to remember Ramshivbaba when i see this present body belonging to Krishna; i just see a-shariri Rambap with the third eye of knowledge; praja souls do not have the third eye to see the a-shariri stage of Rambap; they will only see the body of Ram.
Most PBKs are aware that there is going to be new knowledge where everything wil be revealed. They are aware that Advanced Knowledge is not the last segment of the Godly study.
If the PBKs are aware of this fact then why do they swear by what is said in cds and cassettes and consider it as final truth that God has spoken.
Please, no one will call you selfish as you too will leave the Father's hand. If you are under the assumption that all of your views are accurate, then you will be the only one who will not leave the Father's hand, but it is not so.
I was just quoting what is said in Vanis that ''tum sirf Rambap ka parichay dete jaao, koi leve ya na leve, nahin toh anth mein ulhana denge".
If Ram becomes a-shariri, then how does Ram becomes Ravan?
This is again the teaching of Krishna that Ram becomes Ravan; it has never been said in Murlis; if you can give me one Murli that says 'Ram is Ravan', then i will leave this Godly knowledge forever, never again i will read any Murlis and will return to lokik life.shivsena.

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Re: Atrocity.

Post by shivsena » 26 Dec 2007

button slammer wrote: Ref. No.VCD-364-Part-II-Eng.,
So, it is also fitted into the intellect that – the Father, who transforms a man to Narayan, a woman to Lakshmi must have certainly existed; but what is the mistake that has been committed? Hm? (Someone said –Krishna, the God of Gita ...) Yes. In the knowledge of Gita, in that knowledge of Gita, the name of Krishna has been inserted as the name of the Creator. Well, the name of child Krishna has been inserted; so, it is like an abuse (gaali). The God Father has also been humiliated. The child has been made to sit as the husband of the mother. A cruelty (zulma) has been done. When such an atrocity (zulma) takes place on the God Father also and when such an atrocity takes place on the mother also, then this world becomes a terrible hell (ghor nark).
All the above things are happening in the Advance Party and that is why Advance Party is slowly becoming narak-hell; BKs think that bindi ShivBaba is God of Gita and they are propagating that to the outside world; they have not made the mistake that God of Gita is Krishna; it is the PBKs who have made the mistake of making Krishna as God of Gita as whatever is said in cds during the period of brahma ki raat(from 1989 to 2009) is spoken by brahma alias Krishna and not Ramshivbaba(who is going to be revealed as God of Gita in future)

shivsena.

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Post by suryavanshi » 26 Dec 2007

This is again the teaching of Krishna that Ram becomes Ravan; it has never been said in Murlis
Ram is said to be the seed of the human tree. Since seed contains the whole tree, i.e. deities as well as demons, it is for Ram only who plays the role of Ravan also. That is why, He is said to be the Father of all.

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Post by new knowledge » 27 Dec 2007

bansy wrote:Can anyone remind which souls are in the body of Veerendra Dev Dixit during those few hours of the BapDada meetings in Madhuban held a few times a year ?
Dear shivsena Bhai,
  • * And what is the role of Bindi Shiv during meetings of BapDada in Madhuban?
    * If he delivers Sakar Murlis through the corporeal medium of Dada Lekhraj, then how could be Avyakt Vanis be delivered through Guljar without direct/indirect interference of Bindi Shiv?
    * According to you, soul of
    Mayavi Krishna plays double role during meetings of BapDada in Madhuban. According to you, as the speed of soul is very high, he could travel from one body to another within no time. So during meetings of BapDada, the soul of (Krishna) Dada Lekhraj alternatively enters the bodies of Baba Virendra Dev Dixit & Guljar within no time; so that he simultaneously handles both bodies - that of Baba Virendra Dev Dixit & Guljar at the same time. So it is possible for him to conduct Avyakt Vanis through Guljar & Ghutee Gita through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit at the same time.
Brother shivsena. Could you submit any Murli point to prove double role of soul of Krishna?

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Post by shivsena » 27 Dec 2007

new knowledge wrote:* And what is the role of Bindi Shiv during meetings of BapDada in Madhuban?
* If he delivers Sakar Murlis through the corporeal medium of Dada Lekhraj, then how could be Avyakt Vanis be delivered through Guljar without direct/indirect interference of Bindi Shiv?
* According to you, soul of[/color] Mayavi Krishna plays double role during meetings of BapDada in Madhuban. According to you, as the speed of soul is very high, he could travel from one body to another within no time. So during meetings of BapDada, the soul of (Krishna) Dada Lekhraj alternatively enters the bodies of Baba Veerendra Dev Dixit & Guljar within no time; so that he simultaneously handles both bodies - that of Baba Veerendra Dev Dixit & Guljar at the same time. So it is possible for him to conduct Avyakt Vanis through Guljar & Ghutee Gita through Baba Veerendra Dev Dixit at the same time.

Brother shivsena. Could you submit any Murli point to prove double role of soul of Krishna?
Dear brother.

I do not claim to know everything and there are still many queries for which i am seeking answers; at present i have no definitive answers to your queries which seem very valid; as soon as i have convincing answers for the same, i will present my views.
shivsena.

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Post by shivsena » 27 Dec 2007

suryavanshi wrote:Ram is said to be the seed of the human tree. Since seed contains the whole tree, i.e. deities as well as demons, it is for Ram only who plays the role of Ravan also. That is why, He is said to be the Father of all.
Dear brother suryavanshi.

You are very correct about Ram being the seed of the human tree, but it is also said in Bhakti marg that, ''as you think so you see and become'', and so i want to see Ram as bhagwan-ishwar-ShivBaba and become divine and be called 'Ram sampradaya'; on the other hand those who see Ram as Ravan will then see the face of Ravan-satan-devil when revelation occurs and they will be labelled as ''Ravan sampradaya" (as it is said in Hindi - ''jisne jaise socha unse prabhu ko vaise dekha''); so you are free to see Ram as Ravan but i shall continue to see Ram as Alaf-ShivBaba-ishwar-God-bhagwan.

shivsena.

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Post by andrey » 27 Dec 2007

Dear brother,

But then you may also see ShivBaba instead of Krishna ... and results will follow accordingly. It is the same.

However there is also one another story from the Murli that a man was uttering "I am a buffalo" so he was not able to enter through the door, because it appeared too small for him as he though he was a buffalo and a buffalo is big and cannot pass through the door. However the story goes thet the man actually did not become a buffalo just by uterring. In fact he was a man.

Similarly if you see Ram as Shiv it will not make RamShivBaba. Ram will not become Shiv, just because you wish to see it like this.

If we start from the ignorant point of view regarding God that we don't know him then we know him from the Murli. In whatever way we may interpet the Murli points it is very obvious that Shiv is the benefactor. Whilst you try to turn things around it is very difficult to believe, because your suppositions are just your own.

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Post by shivsena » 28 Dec 2007

andrey wrote: Similarly if you see Ram as Shiv it will not make RamShivBaba. Ram will not become Shiv, just because you wish to see it like this.
Murlis of shiv says that "Ram is ShivBaba" and so i always like to see Ram as ShivBaba; you may see him in whatever way you like but i will always see Ram as paramatma and not as prajapita.
If we start from the ignorant point of view regarding God that we don't know him then we know him from the Murli. In whatever way we may interpet the Murli points it is very obvious that Shiv is the benefactor. Whilst you try to turn things around it is very difficult to believe, because your suppositions are just your own.
Yes- my suppositions are based on Murlis and your suppositions are based on Krishna's teachings; so let us wait till the end and see who is right or worng; in the meantime please do me a favour: please please please do not reply to my posts and i will be most grateful to you.
shivsena.

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Post by new knowledge » 28 Dec 2007

shivsena wrote:Dear brother. I do not claim to know everything
Brother shivsena, really you are broad-minded personality. All of us are Purushaarthee (effort-makers). Nobody knows everything. It doesn't matter that we differ in our opinion. Let's co-operate each other to understand the secrets of Godly knowledge, irrespective of our membership of different BKWSU cults.
If you don't mind may I request you not to be deterministic in your writting? Please be careful while using such terms like '100% nirakari stage', '100% faith', 'with 100% certainty' etc. These are ambiguous terms.
  • * I cannot understand why will RamShivBaba teach RajYoga to 108 RudraMala souls after attainment of his 100% Nirakari stage? 100% Nirakari stage means to be completely free from all Karmic accounts. So at the level of 100% Nirakari stage, RamShivBaba will not need to serve any soul (including that of 108 RudraMala beads) by teaching RajYoga.
    Again do you mean that RamShivBaba will achieve 100% Nirakari stage in 2009-10, i.e, before completion of the Confluence Age? - Then what would be the percentage of his Nirakari stage at the end of the Confluence Age? - More than 100%? Less than 100% or equal to 100%?
    And after attainment of 100% Nirakari stage in 2009-10, how could he continue his part untill the end of the Kalpa?
    Last question. Is not Avyakt stage (middle stage between corporeal & incorporeal stage) sufficient to deliver Shrimat? The term 'Avyakt Vani' is used & not 'Nirakar Vani'. If 100% Nirakari stage of RamShivBaba is essential to deliver Shrimat, then why we say 'Avyakt Vani', & why not to say 'Nirakar Vani'?
    * Only the Father (RamShivBaba) has
    100% faith on His own part. And as indicated by pbkdivya, 108 RudraMala souls have numberwise faith & numberwise faith do not mean 100% faith. Then why do you use the terminology like '100% faith'?
and there are still many queries for which I an seeking answers at present.
Not only you & me, but the Father (i.e, Ram, God, Bhagwan) is in the same position like us. Also He does not know everything. In future, He will know everything. Though He is the Sun of Knowledge, he has got eclipsed today & according to Murli point, also He has to practise self-realisation (Swa-Darshan) to be free from that eclipse.
Even I cannot understand why Shiv is entitled (by PBKs) as the Ocean of knowledge & Ram as the Sun of Knowledge? What's the difference bewteen the Ocean & the Sun of knowlege?
I have no definitive answers to your queries which seem very valid; as soon as I have convicting answers for the same, I will present my views.
My dear brother, I've not asked queries to challenge you. I just request you to churn about my queries. So not necessary to reply if you have no time or if you are not sure. OK?

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Post by shivsena » 28 Dec 2007

A very important Murli point for all PBKs.

Murli 13-2-97; Shiva says "ShivBaba ko prajapita nahin kahenge" (''ShivBaba cannot be called prajapita'')

Murli 14-4-76; Shiva says " Ram kaha jaata hai ShivBaba ko" ( ''Ram is said to be ShivBaba'')

In the above 2 Murlis, Shiva is clearly saying, by emerging Ram's soul that Ram is ShivBaba and not prajapita.
Why does Shiva need to say that ''ShivBaba ko prajapita nahin kahenge"; no bk says that bindi ShivBaba is prajapita, but it is PBKs who believe that Ramshivbaba is prajapita; So Shiva has clearly seen that in future, the so-called PBKs will make this mistake of thinking that ''Ram is prajapita'' and so for them He has given hint in the Murlis that Ram is ShivBaba and not prajapita; and whosoever(108 king souls) who will read the Murlis only, will be able to understand this fact, while the rest of PBKs(16000) who just listen to Krishna's cds (without co-relating to Shiva's Murlis) will automatically be seperated out as praja. ( seperating the BKs, PBKs and 108 king souls with just one Murli point)

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Post by andrey » 28 Dec 2007

Of course ShivBaba is not Prajapita. He is Parampita. He does not become a king of subjects. He is Father to the souls only.

These saying are used often like for example - by heart- "ShivBaba's birthday is worth diamonds"

and at other place "You become from shells into diamonds". Will this mean we will take birth as ShivBaba?

As it has been said many times there is incorporeal Ram, the only Father, for whom even the soul of Ram is Sita.

Dear brother whilst you name it enlightening us it is very obvious you just claim your throne. Whilst you complain about disunity in the PBK family you admit your desire is to rule your own section of the world. Are we not aiming in uniting the whole world with one king as in Golden Age , and not as the semi-heaven of Silver Age. As your way of claiming your throne you may adopt king-like sanskaras, but unless you become emperor of the whole world, please undertsand you will be king of only your own separate kingdom. Fo r your own subjects you may create the rules as you please, sometimes according the Murlis sometimes not, sometimes using the advance knowledge, sometimes donying it. They will have to live in fear for the only logic to accept is that because "I say so". As for the rest we are not your subjects, you are not to rule over us nor are we to obey you, so we are like equal kings.

You use the word Krishna as if it has become a bad word.

There is no reason to refuse you a favour, because we have never had uncomfortable interactions, however your desire to make me stop speaking will not make the points disappear. I am just telling what is obvious. If it is not me it will be someone else. It is very popular practice to use force.

Then in the Murli it is said that first Maya tries to separate us from the Father and then she tries to make us belong to her. Because you are to become a king you also have to have subjects or else what kind of king will you be - without subjects.

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Post by arjun » 28 Dec 2007

Shivsena wrote:Murli 13-2-97; Shiva says "ShivBaba ko Prajapita nahin kahenge" (''ShivBaba cannot be called Prajapita'')
ShivBaba is a combination of the incorporeal and the corporeal one. So, PBKs never called ShivBaba as Prajapita. It is the corporeal medium of the incorporeal God who is Prajapita.
Murli 14-4-76; Shiva says " Ram kaha jaata hai ShivBaba ko" (''Ram is said to be ShivBaba'')
Here ShivBaba does not mean only the corporeal Confluence-Aged Ram but a combination of the incorporeal Ram and the corporeal Confluence-Aged Ram.

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Post by pbkdivya » 29 Dec 2007

shivsena wrote:All 108 souls are called rudramala souls so they become like rudra bap numberwise; 8 souls are those who take scholarship.

It is said in Avyakt Vani dated 15/9/74--- "Master Sun of Knowledge means equal to Father. Only the eight gems attain a stage equal to that of Father in spite of being stars, is not it?" All PBKs (except you) aspire to be in the rosary of eight as the rosary of 8 (and not 108) is shown on the head of Shankar.
It is said in Murlis that "doorandeshi bacche doorandeshi bap ko pechante hain"(visionary children only can recognise the incorporeal stage of Ram's soul); praja quality souls do not have this power.
There is a saying that "only an idiot can recognize another idiot", so similarly an incorporeal stage can recognize another incorporeal stage, as you haven't attained your incorporeal stage yet to recognize the incorporeal stage of Rambap.
It is very easy to remember Ramshivbaba when I see this present body belonging to Krishna; I just see a-shariri Rambap with the third eye of knowledge; praja souls do not have the third eye to see the a-shariri stage of Rambap; they will only see the body of Ram.
That's your mind's eye to see Krishna owning the body of Rambap. If Krishna is going to own Rambap's body, then how is the revelation of Shivjayanthi going to surface?
If the PBKs are aware of this fact then why do they swear by what is said in cds and cassettes and consider it as final truth that God has spoken.

Can you ask Arjun, Andhrey, Button Slammer, Suryavanshi and other PBKs of this forum, whether they consider advance knowledge as the final word of God or is there going to be a new knowledge where everything will be revealed?
I was just quoting what is said in Vanis that ''tum sirf Rambap ka parichay dete jaao, koi leve ya na leve, nahin toh anth mein ulhana denge".
When it is said not to be selfish, it denotes disseminating Father's introduction but not you manmat.
This is again the teaching of Krishna that Ram becomes Ravan; it has never been said in Murlis; if you can give me one Murli that says 'Ram is Ravan', then I will leave this Godly knowledge forever, never again I will read any Murlis and will return to lokik life.shivsena.
Sadly to say, just for a Murli quote, you want to leave Father. What about your undying love for Rambap? You love singing praises of Rambap, yet you want to leave such a Father for just a Murli quote. Besides knowledge, is not love the basis for a relationship? Even if I have the Murli quote that says 'Ram become Ravan', I will not post it. As I do not want to be the cause of you leaving ShivBaba. It will be unbearable and remorseful to leave ShivBaba for just a mere Murli quote.

Also you always point a finger at the PBKs that they are reading adulterated advance knowledge. What about you? Aren't you reading adulterated Sakar Murlis that Krishna's soul has interfered? So before you preach, please practise it.

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