Karma

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fluffy bunny
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Re: Karma

Post by fluffy bunny » 06 Sep 2008

newlife wrote:Let's face it, whatever answer anyone gives, you're not going to turn round and say, "that's it. Oh, joy"
I promise you not. Karma is not limited to BK-life. We apply it to our and others condition on an 'off the cuff' level ... and yet, as this topic shows ... at best it is a matter of faith.

My problem with many of the "BK answers" like mbbhat's is, to be honest, that they don't come anywhere near to or stick to the topic. They veer from sansakars to drama and fall into that old BK pit of taking a simple question and turning it into a 45 minute long version of the whole of the 7 Day Course (... and you've seen it too! :D ).

At the very least, I would have hoped for a comparison of Brahma Kumari versus Buddhist versus Hindu or other religious faith in karma but we have not even ... recently ... had the simplest of summaries of BK Karma philosophy. Which is unique to itself, yes? Yes.

Personally, I am leaning towards what Tinydot is writing about above here, e.g. there is no external mechanism, most things that happen to us are not "our karma", not everything that happens to us is in our control. "Karma" is not exact. But even if there is no external mechanism, how does the internal mechanism effect the material world and other humans, e.g. to attract bad experiences?

If we take tinydot's last point of "overpunishment like being raped or murdered for no apparent reason". By the simplistic BK Karma philosophy ... which my bet lies on being nothing more than a mental plug to stop us thinking or questioning ... if something bad happens to you, a) it is your fault and b) by it happening, you are paying off previous bad karma.

By that logic, if I am am gang raped and beaten, I must surely have paid off a huge amount of bad karma and will therefore be wondrously clear, light and happy afterwards? This is obviously not the case. So what does BKWSU say, "oh, well ... those ones must have even more bad karma to clear"?

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Re: Karma

Post by mbbhat » 06 Sep 2008

tinydot wrote:So what is the reason why someone is raped or murdered for no apparent reason. We don't know, honestly speaking.
The person who was raped or murdered was weak(had accumulated sins in past births). When one's health is weak, germs attack him easily. Here the germ is also another person. He becomes weak(accumulates sin) after committing the murder.

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Re: Karma

Post by fluffy bunny » 06 Sep 2008

mbbhat wrote:The person who was raped or murdered was weak (had accumulated sins in past births).
That is your faith, mbbhat. That is what you have been mentally programmed to believe. That is the justification for all sort of caste and sexist injustices in India.
  • But if it is true ... as I keep asking ... explain exactly HOW!
ex-l wrote:there is no external mechanism
I quote myself to clarify ... what external mechanism there is is tiny, e.g. the "reaction" we get to kicking someone's ass is limited to the pain in our toe. That is as far as Newton's Laws go. Any other reaction, e.g. personal, societal, legal, is not actually "karma" at all.

If there is a "Law of Karma" why can it not be expressed? When did the idea of a "Law" start (like the "Law" of Attraction, it is just marketing to make it sound more important)?

And what about ' the Jewish Question'? How did all those Jews attract all those Nazis to do good "bad" things to them in order to clear their bad Jewish karma (according to BKWSU theory)? Or how the people of St Louis bringing up themselves the flood but not their equally sinful Cincinnati ...

To underline, what I am asking about here is "national" or "Collective Karma" which others suggest exists but is not brought up in BK philosophy. How does the BKWSU account for Collective Karma?

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Re: Karma

Post by mbbhat » 06 Sep 2008

Dear ex-l soul,

It is REAL DRAMA. Both real (every action has its fruit) and Drama (predefined). If you ask why the first attack happened, I have only two answers; the first one was body-conscious and more powerful, and the second one was body-conscious and weak.

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Re: Karma

Post by mr green » 06 Sep 2008

mbbhat wrote:It is REAL DRAMA. Both real (every action has its fruit) and drama (predefined). If you ask why the first attack happened, I have only two answers, the first one was body-conscious and more powerful, the second one was body-conscious and weak.
This is an extreme belief I find it distasteful and arrogant considering it is based on blind faith.

But, hey ho, I say live and let live.

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Re: Karma

Post by bansy » 06 Sep 2008

newlife wrote:Sorry, I don't mean to be rude by saying the above but we are all conditioned, and as much as we try to undo that conditioning, it is only to find we become conditioned to something else or in another way.
This is why I said I don't know what karma is yet, and I have not made any suggestions about what karma or the Law of Karma is. So how is that for being conditioned or unconditioned ?

I think you have come up with some fresh look at what this topic is about and I am sure other forum readers have found too.

I am personally here not to prove or disprove any theories or ideas, I am trying to dig in deep to look for the source of what is karma, but if folks will move on in their own way, that is fine. As I also move on. This topic will keep going.

The BK morning Murli of 04Sep 2008 says "Human beings don't know what the soul is or who the Supreme Soul is." But if anyone anywhere does, then maybe congratulations, as you are now not a human being and there is little or no need to study (even though the Murli says so to do that also). Of course, anyone can interpret Murli points in their own way.

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Re: Karma

Post by arjun » 06 Sep 2008

ex-l wrote:If we take tinydot's last point of "overpunishment like being raped or murdered for no apparent reason". By the simplistic BK Karma philosophy ... which my bet lies on being nothing more than a mental plug to stop us thinking or questioning ... if something bad happens to you, a) it is your fault and b) by it happening, you are paying off previous bad karma.

By that logic, if I am am gang raped and beaten, I must surely have paid off a huge amount of bad karma and will therefore be wondrously clear, light and happy afterwards? This is obviously not the case. So what does BKWSU say, "oh, well ... those ones must have even more bad karma to clear"?
If every person who is raped or physically harmed thinks that it is due to his karma then there is no need for judiciary at all. Karma theory can give solace to some who are either too weak/poor to fight or too lethargic/busy to lodge any protest. But I believe that whatever may be the 'unknown' reasons (like karma of past births) for 'being raped or murdered for no apparent reasons' one should definitely fight for justice as far as possible.

Recently, my friend had employed a maid servant. She told him that her husband met with an accident while crossing the road. Someone's vehicle hit him and sped away. Poor fellow broke his leg. That was about two months ago. Because of the accident he lost his job and so his wife and daughter (an unwed mother in her teens) had to work in homes to survive. They went to a famous Government hospital for treatment nearly three times. But because of the rampant corruption, they did not even plaster his leg. They were demanding money from him (although medical treatment at Government hospitals is supposed to be free of cost) which the poor fellow could not afford to pay. He went to another Government hospital and even there he was unable to get treatment because of corruption.

So, the poor fellow was living with broken leg and open wound for the last two months unable to even stand on his feet. After my friend came to know of his condition, he along with his aged Father went to the same hospital for two days where he had consulted orthopedicians and got his leg X-rayed and plastered. Since there was no wheel chair available for him, the victim had to crawl to various rooms in the hospital with his broken leg. Anyway, since his wound had not yet healed the doctor asked him to get a window opened on the plaster for daily dressings so that wound could heal. He has been asked to visit the hospital after a month to know whether operation is necessary or not.

In the above case, the victim and his family has suffered immensely for no apparent reason. And since he is too poor to fight the corrupt system he continued to suffer. He lives in a small garage (of 4X6 feet along with his family) in a good locality and I am sure many educated and moneyed people living around his garage must have been aware of his condition. But nobody came forward to help him. It is only when my friend helped him that he got justice. But even my friend was victimised by the corrupt system to some extent as he had to buy cotton for the plaster and other materials for dressing of the wound although these things are supposed to be provided free of cost.

My friend was surprised to observe that despite such immense sufferings the victim or his family was not shedding tears perhaps thinking it to be their karma. The above mentioned family seeking solace in karma theory is understandable as they are too poor to fight the system, but what about the people living around them who, despite being educated and financially well-off did not try to help these poor people simply because of their lethargy and insensitivity?

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Re: Karma

Post by tinydot » 06 Sep 2008

mbbhat wrote:The person who was raped or murdered was weak (had accumulated sins in past births). When one's health is weak, germs attack him easily. Here the germ is also another person. He becomes weak (accumulates sin) after committing the murder.
mbbhat, I hate to say this, but I think you are starting from a theory that has not been proven universally. That is a dangerous form of reasoning because it starts from a generalization that might be false. Deductive reasoning is seldom used in logic. Knowledge is always inductive. Check my logical argument about cause and effect ("P implies Q", "Q: therefore P" is a false conclusion, if you had studied Philosophy 1 - Logic), and you will find out, that your argument is untenable.

This is like accusing someone without facts. It is best to keep silence and give good wishes.

To prove it logically, here goes a typical example:

If it rains, the ground gets wet. The ground got wet, therefore it rained [FALSE, since someone might have watered the ground].

Now,

If the ground did not get wet, then it did NOT rain [This is a TRUE STATEMENT].

The theory of karma must be based on logic if it will stand by itself.

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Re: Karma

Post by fluffy bunny » 07 Sep 2008

mbbhat wrote:The person who was raped or murdered was weak (had accumulated sins in past births).
Another very simple reason why I disagree with this is that it excludes any new bad karma from being done, e.g. the rape or murder of an innocent. This is another element that the BKWSU seems to utterly ignore, one in which it could be accusing innocents of past crimes and hence not being worthy of compassion.

In my opinion, there is an untouchability element that enters into the equation when something bad happens to someone ... they become more "untouchable" because "obviously" they must have very bad karma. It is medieval superstition, supporting all sorts of abuse, condemning innocents are bearer of bad fortune. Who REALLY knows?

Again, I have never heard a BK answer the question, "is there new bad karma ... must a victims ALWAYS be a past criminal?". Logic suggest they must be ... we have freedom of choice to do good or bad ... if not bad karma would have to run out and no more good karma be made.

Ditto, is the victim's "crime" identical to the suffering they received? If so, how? If no, how? What controls the variables in events? (And as an aside, what controls the variables in the time of return?).

At this point, I think the BKWSU 'tower of logic' crumbles in panic and ends up as pile of rubble entitled, "everything is accurate according to drama ... just remember Baba". Another mental plug to stop people thinking. Perhaps "stopping thinking" is a good thing and that is "Karma's" value? Perhaps it is just all about keeping our minds closed and connected to The Baba, so The Baba can feed off it?

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Re: Karma

Post by mbbhat » 09 Sep 2008

mr green wrote:But, hey ho, I say live and let live.
Really a good quality.

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Re: Karma

Post by fluffy bunny » 09 Sep 2008

mr green wrote:But, hey ho, I say live and let live.
I say, get a very good guard dog with big teeth ... and then live and let live.

Unfortunately, "live and let live" on its own is not enough. It is interpreted as weakness is some quarters, an invitation to invasion. Invasion by force or invasion by stealth. In the BKWSU's case, it is invasion by stealth. "Three square feet at a time", as The Baba says. Invasion by disguise ... always slowly encroaching ... never resting ... always re-inventing.

I wonder what the karma for that is? Listen ... I can hear my dog barking again.

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Re: Karma

Post by john morgan » 09 Sep 2008

The study of karma and deep introspection go together. Two sides of the same coin, for one a penny, for another a farthing. If one has the ability to choose what qualities one puts into action and does this responsibly then superb outcomes are not only possible but highly likely.

I like creating thoughts.

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Re: Karma

Post by dilaram » 23 Sep 2008

Karma is a fascinating subject is it not ... just to perhaps throw a curved ball, as our cousins from America would say, what do you think about this hypothisis?

Say I was raped by someone who did it for revenge ... except I had never done what they thought I had done in the first place? Does it mean I did the same in connection with these souls in another birth? If it happened to me personally, I would think categorically not, as I know I am not capable of such an act. Now, if I was faced with do it or suffer torture would I do it? Or do it to save loved ones from torture? All things are possible but why deal with the nebulous possibilities when you can deal with the certainties of Baba washing our clothes? Kinda like biting your nose off to spite your face.

But, yes, karma is fascinating. Here's another, if you become a Deity in heaven but not an Angel, i.e. Silver Aged only, is that because you were more concerned with complexity and justice rather than being a bestower and merciful? If you are an Angel, is it because you were very good throughout the Kalpa or because you simply followed Baba's instructions of how to become one?

I see but don't see ... ;).

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Re:

Post by Roy » 21 May 2011

andrey wrote:To know the Law of Karma, we should study the Law of Karma. After we know it we can even link it to the Law of Motion, but we cannot study the Law of Karma by studying the Law of Motion. The Law of Karma is a spiritual law, so we should study it from a spiritual teacher. If you don't find answers it may mean you don't ask where it needs to be asked, like asking for shoes in pharmacy. Still, as you continue to imply, the Law of Karma is just a matter of faith.
Are these two laws not one and the same. The law of motion is the Law of Karma, because karma means action, and action, is that which has motion. Newton's third law of motion is accurate, but only corresponds to gross physical actions or motion. The Law of Karma in Gyan, is mainly talking about the very subtle actions that take place in this world; the actions which are our very thoughts, or our thought processes(although these thoughts may well become physical action, which are also subject to the Law of Karma of course; but it is the consciousness they are performed in, that decides what type of action they are - good or bad). Our minds where thoughts manifest, are always in a state of motion; so we are always in action, even when we sleep, as these thoughts continue in the form of dreams. We can only transcend this condition when we achieve the thoughtless, or bodiless stage; otherwise known as the karmateet stage, when we become free from the bondage of karma. Any action performed in the thoughtless, or constant soul conscious stage, has no karmic consequence, because there is no motion of thought involved. We will neither perform good(sukarma) or bad actions(vikarma), it will simply be akarma, actions with no consequences. Therefore Father Shiv being constantly in the thoughtless stage, has no return for His actions at all; all His actions are akarmic.

All our actions are recorded as impressions or sanskars within the soul; these sanskars are recorded in the form of vibrations, that effect everything around us, from the way we think, to the way our bodies function, to the way matter behaves around us, in our everyday lives. On mass, our vibrations cause the unpredictable weather we experience, to earthquake activity; and we reap the consequences of these conditions. Our very thoughts reach throughout the whole universe, and affect even the planets and the stars; and this is why i believe even astrology has some basis in fact, when it is done accurately. I for one am definately an Aries soul, and although this is a broad label, i fit into the broad defintion pretty well; as do i recognise how these broad astrology sign labels, have a loose fit, for those around me also. So astrology, is really about acknowledging the relationship of our actions(personalities-sanskars), with their consequences, that are even felt in the heavens!

Roy

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