Presence of ShivBaba

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Presence of ShivBaba

Post by spiritualbk » 02 Mar 2010

It is believed by us, the BKs that

(1) ShivBaba no longer stays in this corporeal world after the demise of Brahmababa in 1969.

(2) ShivBaba delivers the Avyakt vanies as well as Godly inheritance (Varsa) through Brahmababa who is now in subtle stage in the Subtle Region and always remains combined with incorporeal God Father Shiva and uses the corporeal body of Gulzar Dadi for such purposes. Brahmababa who was playing the role of Prajapita in his corporeal stage is also continuing that role through corporeal Gulzar Dadi and hence he is the only Prajapita and there cannot be any one else.

Can any one on the earth deny the aforesaid established facts?

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by john » 02 Mar 2010

spiritualbk wrote:It is believed by us, the BKs that


Can any one on the earth deny the aforesaid established facts?
The Murlis state that Shiva cannot enter the body of a virgin.

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by shivsena » 14 Mar 2010

spiritualbk wrote: (2) ShivBaba delivers the Avyakt vanies as well as Godly inheritance (Varsa) through Brahmababa who is now in subtle stage in the Subtle Region and always remains combined with incorporeal God Father Shiva and uses the corporeal body of Gulzar Dadi for such purposes.
If Shiva always remains combined with subtle brahma(Krishna), then why in Bhakti-marg Shiva and Krishna are never associated with each other and in the state of gujarat, Krishna is exclusively worshipped but shivling is never worshipped and the vaishnav-ites(worshippers of Krishna) are always at loggerheads with shaiv-ities(worshippers of Shiva).

shivsena.

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by mbbhat » 12 Aug 2012

The Murlis state that Shiva cannot enter the body of a virgin.
I think- that might have said for that period (till brahma Baba existed in corporeal).
But i have not seen that Murli point so far. If anyone can give the date, it is good.

And I believe- ShivBaba and brahma Baba for most of the time are combined. but there is nothing tying them physically. how can and why? But BKs believe so(always combined)- because- in Murli it is said- you always think that both are combined. And since brahma Baba is so close to ShivBaba, more stress might have been given by senior Bk sisters on the students.

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by arjun » 12 Aug 2012

I think- that might have said for that period (till Brahma Baba existed in corporeal).
But i have not seen that Murli point so far. If anyone can give the date, it is good.
"Abhi toh koi kalaa nahi hai, job hi badey say badey log hain athava mahatma aadi hai, yah Baap kee knowledge unki taqdeer may hee nahi hai. Unho ko apnaa hee ghamand hai. Bahut karke hai hee gareebon kee taqdeer may. Koi kahtey hain itnaa oonch Baap hai, unko toh koi badey Raja athava pavitra rishi aadi kay tan may aana chaahiye. Pavitra hotey hee hain sanyaasi. Pavitra kanya kay tan may aaye. Baap baith samjhaatey hain mai kismay aata hoon. Mai aata hee usmay hoon jo poorey 84 janma letey hain. Ek din bhi kam nahee." (BKs dwara prakaashit revised Sakar Murli taareekh 21.11.05, page 2)

“Now there is no kalaa (i.e. degree of soul consciousness). This knowledge of Father is not in the fate of the biggest personalities or great souls etc. They are proud of themselves. Mostly it (i.e. the knowledge of Father) is in the luck of poor people. Some people say that if He is such a highest Father, then He must enter into the body of a big king or a pure sage etc. Monks are only pure. He should come in a virgin. Father sits and explains, ‘whom do I enter into?’ I enter into the body of that soul only, which takes complete 84 births. Not even a day less. ” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 21.11.05, page 2 published by BKs)
- Baba is telling that Father does not enter into the body of a big king or a pure sage. Baba is also telling that monks and virgins are pure. So Father certainly must not be coming into the body of a monk or a virgin. But the BKs say that Father comes in the body of BK Gulzar Dadi (who is a virgin). So is it correct according to the above Murli?
- Baba is telling that Father comes in the body of that soul only which takes complete 84 births, not even a single day less. BKs say that Shiv entered into the body of Dada Lekhraj Brahma and narrated the true knowledge of Gita. But Dada Lekhraj left his body in 1969 itself, i.e. many years have been reduced from his part in the 5000 years drama. So does it mean that Shiv played the role of a mother only and not a role of Father through the body of Brahma Baba? So is Shiv playing the role of Father at some other place through some other person, who takes complete 84 births, not even a single day less? Isn’t that person Shankar, who has been shown sitting atop a globe while all the souls are returning to the Soul World?
- Isn’t the above revised Murli point a manipulated form of the following original revised Murli point dated 15.10.69 – “Now there is no kalaa (degree of soul consciousness). There are no praises for them. Human beings do not know this. It is not in the fate of any of the highest personalities or great souls etc. Mostly it is in the luck of poor people. He is such a highest Father. So He should enter into a body of a king or pure sage. Monks are only pure. He should come in the body of a pure virgin, but it is not according to the rule. He is a Father, so how can He ride on the body of a virgin? Father sits and explains ‘whom do I enter into?’ I enter into the body of that soul only, which takes complete 84 births. Not even a day less. ”

In the Murli dated 15.10.69 Baba is telling that “He should come in the body of a pure virgin, but it is not according to the rule. He is a Father, so how can He ride on the body of a virgin?” It proves that Father Shiv does not enter into the body of BK Gulzar Dadi, who is a virgin. Is it true that while revising the Murli dated 15.10.69 on 21.11.05 the words “but it is not according to the rule. He is a Father, so how can He ride on the body of a virgin?” have been deleted so that the remaining words, i.e. “He should come in the body of a pure virgin” could be used to prove that Father Shiv enters into the body of Gulzar Dadiji? If it is true then is it not improper to manipulate the versions of God Shiv? Is it proper to take the support of falsehood to prove God, for whom it is said “God is truth?” Is this manipulation in Murlis being done to counter the progress of Advance Party, which says that the role of Father Shiv is going on at some other place in some other body since 1976?

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by mbbhat » 12 Aug 2012

Some people say that if He is such a highest Father, then He must enter into the body of a big king or a pure sage etc. Monks are only pure. He should come in a virgin. Father sits and explains, ‘whom do I enter into?’ I enter into the body of that soul only, which takes complete 84 births. Not even a day less.
so- there is no Murli point where Baba directly says that i never come in virgin- is it not? so- it is once again PBKs' interpretation. fine.

so- it was ShivBaba's reply to the lowkik people's questions.

Baba had said- i come in experienced Chariot. So- it should be Brahma Baba. but after the main purpose is over by 1969, I do not think he needs to stick to those words.
Is this manipulation in Murlis being done to counter the progress of Advance Party, which says that the role of Father Shiv is going on at some other place in some other body since 1976?
I think- you should put in Hindi words of that Murli- 1969. then only we can comment. moreover if you feel BKWSU is doing to counter the progress of PBKs, i think the following interpretation also aims in attacking BKWSU, is it not?
So does it mean that Shiv played the role of a mother only and not a role of Father through the body of Brahma Baba? So is Shiv playing the role of Father at some other place through some other person, who takes complete 84 births, not even a single day less? Isn’t that person Shankar, who has been shown sitting atop a globe while all the souls are returning to the Soul World?
BKWSU have done manipulations in mrulis to make the words in Murlis look good, since in older Murlis- there are lots of gramatical errors and the tone which Baba used was not direct.

Since the tone is indirect, there would be a natural and different taste to listen those Murlis- it is like child walking or dancing- there are no rules - it gives more enjoyment than the present ones.

But for those who are not tuned propely to baba- new Murlis are better, because they may get a little irritated by those older words.

And - I believe if there would be no manipulations, the sister who reads and translates will have lesser ego, since it is ShivBaba's step in Murli.

But the listeners should be able to dance to those words. else- it would look like not royal.

anyhow, drama.

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by arjun » 12 Aug 2012

I think- you should put in Hindi words of that Murli- 1969. then only we can comment.
15.10.69 Murli - “-“Abhi toh koi bhi kalaa nahi hai, unki kuch bhi mahima thodey hee hai. Manushya thodey hee yah jaantey hain. Jo bhi badey tay badey hain athava mahatma aadi hain koi kee bhi taqdeer may nahi hai. Bahut karke toh hai gareebon kee taqdeer may. Itna oonch Baap hai toh unko toh Raja athava pavitra rishi kay tan may aana chaahiye, pavitra hotey hee hain sanyaasi. Pavitra kanya kay tan may aavey, parantu kaayda nahi hai. Baap so fir kumari par kaisey savaari karengey? Baap baith samjhaatey hain, mai kis may aata hoon. Mai toh aata hee usmay hoon, jo ki poorey 84 janma letey hain, ek din bhi kam nahee.”

“Now there is no kalaa (degree of soul consciousness). There are no praises for them. Human beings do not know this. It is not in the fate of any of the highest personalities or great souls etc. Mostly it is in the luck of poor people. He is such a highest Father. So He should enter into a body of a king or pure sage. Monks are only pure. He should come in the body of a pure virgin, but it is not according to the rule. He is a Father, so how can He ride on the body of a virgin? Father sits and explains ‘whom do I enter into?’ I enter into the body of that soul only, which takes complete 84 births. Not even a day less. ”
BKWSU have done manipulations in mrulis to make the words in Murlis look good, since in older Murlis- there are lots of gramatical errors and the tone which Baba used was not direct.

Since the tone is indirect, there would be a natural and different taste to listen those Murlis- it is like child walking or dancing- there are no rules - it gives more enjoyment than the present ones.

But for those who are not tuned propely to baba- new Murlis are better, because they may get a little irritated by those older words.

And - I believe if there would be no manipulations, the Sister who reads and translates will have lesser ego, since it is ShivBaba's step in Murli.

But the listeners should be able to dance to those words. else- it would look like not royal.
If I twist even a single word written by you on this forum, you will start replying in red, bold and large letters to express your anger. And when BKs cut and manipulate ShivBaba's words to reduce it to half the quantity you take it lightly just because you people think that ShivBaba is in the Supreme Abode. Who is going to question us? Whatever we do is going to be the final word. This shows how much respect you have for ShivBaba and how much egotistic you are about your own words. Anyway, it is people like you who hide ShivBaba in the Confluence Age and also hide Him from Copper Age onwards. Nothing new. Do as you wish.

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by mbbhat » 12 Aug 2012

Wonderful Murli point.

The problem with PBKs is- they use this Murli point to prove that Baba will not come in Dadi Gulzar.

but, Baba aslo- says- I come only in one body. but still claim that ShivBaba came in Sevakram, Dada Lekhraj and Mr. Dixit. So- they take and adjust according to them.

so- why cannot it be that- those words of Baba were for that periond- because Baba will not stay in the Chariot for the whole day. and hence he needs an expereinced Chariot for those days, Else- if Baba would entering in virgin during beginning period of Yagya, and in every day- if Baba stays in that body for say 2 hours- (say) - then during the rest of the day- can that virgin without any expereince give paalanaa (sustenance) to other children?

But Brahma Baba had enough expereince from poverty to richness, from village to kings's darbaar.

so- those words may be for that period. Later now, when knowledge is understood by many, after 1969, he may come in Dadi-

Now- if we interpret it so, PBKs may call you are doing manmath.

but- if they do, they can say ShivBaba is with them (without any proof).

This is the problem.

If PBKs wish to stick on to Murli point, let them stick fully.
but they can say anything regarding Murli points- "this is said in behad (unlimited ) sense. even when Baba says- i come in old body, they can interpret in their own ways"

when PBKs can assume anything, what can they accuse on BKs?
If I twist even a single word written by you on this forum, you will start replying in red, bold and large letters to express your anger
.

Not anger dear. They are highlighted, because there the meaning has become negative due to your twist.
Moreover it is PBKs who claim for accuracy than BKs. So- they should be more accurate , is it not?

I have mentioned three very important points. And all the points are universal .They are not time bound like the above.

When we talk about ShivBaba- it is above time scale.
So- when the arguement comes name ShivBaba is based on body or not - that point is applicable for all the time. [not time bounded like the above point-the entrance in virgin]
And when BKs cut and manipulate ShivBaba's words to reduce it to half the quantity you take it lightly
It is because by that- BKWSU is not harming anyone outside BKWSU by editing Murlis. It is internal matter.

But PBKs, after leaving BKWSU are trying to attack BKWSU. You (PBKs) may say- our teachings are for BKs. But that is statement of PBKs. OK. let us give weightage for that.

but then BKs do not depend on scriptures of lowkik people to teach them like PBKs depend on Murlis to teach BKs. - this is the main point to be understood by all PBKs before accusing this point, is it not?

Even if lowkik people give various comments on lowkik Gita,- Many such versions of lowkik Gita has been prepared- Tagore Gita, Ashtavakr Gita, etc, etc. Do BKs comment on them? It is upto lowkik people, is it not? so- why do not PBKs see the matter in that way?

Instead they act as if Murli is their birth right? such simple logic, is it not?

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by arjun » 12 Aug 2012

mbbhat Bhai,
First you said there is no point that Shiv doesn't come in a virgin. Now I have given the Murli proof that Shiv doesn't enter in a virgin. And I have also give Murli proof of how BKWSU resorts to cutting of Murlis to check the progress of PBKs. Still, if you don't want to believe the above and want to support the cutting and editing of Murlis by BKWSU, then it is your sweet will.
It is because by that- BKWSU is not harming anyone outside BKWSU by editing Murlis. It is internal matter.
That does not give you or BKWSU the right to cut/edit Murlis.

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by mbbhat » 13 Aug 2012

First you said there is no point that Shiv doesn't come in a virgin.
i never said so. i said- i have not seen/heard.
That does not give you or BKWSU the right to cut/edit Murlis.
I have not said that they have right so. but for those who find faults in others and have expecations-

SM 3-9-82(2):- Baap ko bhool jaate hain toh gyaan ko bhi bhool jaate hain. Baap ko faarkati dee toh khalaas. Baap kaa ban agar vikaar may gaye toh gala ghut jaayegaa. Kuch bhi bol nahin sakenge. JO BAHUT ACHCHAA2 PRACHAAR KARTE THAY, VAH AAJ HAI NAHIN. KOYI BRAHMAKUMAARI SE MATH BHED HUVAA, BAS BAAP PAR GUSSEY HO JAATE KI BABA INKO SAMJHAATE NAHIN, YAH NAHIN KARTEY. AAKHRIN PADHAAYI HI CHOD DETE HAIN. ISLIYE BAAP KAHTE HAIN MAHAAMOORKH DEKHNAA HO TOH YAHAAN DEKHO. Likh_kar bhi dete hain ki Baba main aapkaa hun. Aapsey hum sadaa sukh vaa varsaa avinaashi lenge. Phir bhi faarkati de dete, divorce de dete hain. ACHCHI2 BACHCHIYAAN THI, AAJ VAH HAI NAHIN. TOH WONDER HAI NA. Maya AISEY DASTHI/DUSTHI HAI JO BADE2 MAHAARATHI JINKO HANUMAN KAHTE THAY, PARANTU VAH BHI HAI NAHIN. AJIGAR KE PET MAY CHALEY GAYE. Mukh se kuch kah na sakey. Yah avinaashi gyaan sunaa na sakey. BAAPDAADAA KI RAAY PAR TEEKAA TIPPANI KARNE LAG PADTEY HAIN. Bahut samjhaayaa jaataa hai kuch sudhar jaavo. Ismay hi kalyaan hai. Parantu sudharte hi nahin. BAHUT ACHCHE2 BACHCHE CHALEY GAYE. ABHI BHI BAHUT AISEY BACHCHE HAIN JO KINAAREY PAR KHADEY HAIN. Blood se bhi pratigyaa likh_kar chod dete hain. -4- [warning, PBKs, prediction, bhaaganti]

= good children who were doing good publishing (service) are not there today. They had some conflict with Bk sister incharge, they become angry over Father that Father does not teach/explain to them, does not do this; then at last, they leave study. Hence Baba says- to see highest fools, see here. .... They even criticize on directions of Baapdada….... Many good children left. Even now, many are on the border…..even after giving promise in blood, children leave.
------
the above Murli point is for all BKs and PBKs those who try to find faults even in sister incharges.

I think- there is need to revize this Murli point every week, so that outr drushti does not go to find faults in others. but the job of PBKs is just to find faults in BKWSU, list them, type in computer and have a soft copy and distribute them.

i have already said- it is Chariot of PBKs that are claimed to be strict by PBKs. Neither Bk, nor BKWSU, claim their Chariot to be strict. and even the above Murli point says- that God himself will not be strict, but children even complain on Father.

i have heard this from Dadis class. "When we were going to Baba to complain others- Baba used to say- "bhagavaan ki rachnaa may kami dihaayi deti hai kyaa ? = do you see faults in creation of God?"

so- it is up to PBKs. My intention here was never to find fault in PBKs. but it was just to reply to them, sometimes in their own tone.

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by arjun » 13 Aug 2012

i never said so. i said- i have not seen/heard.
Don't eat your words. Here is what you said:
mbbhat wrote:there is no Murli point where Baba directly says that i never come in virgin- is it not?
i have already said- it is Chariot of PBKs that are claimed to be strict by PBKs. Neither BK, nor BKWSU, claim their Chariot to be strict. and even the above Murli point says- that God himself will not be strict, but children even complain on Father.
Brahma Baba may not have been strict either through his own body or through the body of Dadi Gulzar. But ShivBaba has already hinted about the strict role many decades ago. It is said in one of the Murlis that the rules will go on becoming strict day by day. But in BKWSU the rules are going on becoming lax.
There are innumerable references about the role of Dharmaraj and Satguru being strict. If the same was not played by Brahma Baba or Dadi Gulzar, then it does not mean that such a strict role does not exist at all.

If you wish you can continue to violate Shrimat and defend others who violate Shrimat by thinking that there is no strict role of ShivBaba.

rmn

Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by rmn » 13 Aug 2012

My dear oul brother Arjun,
pl clarify:

In many muralis baba told that, when i enterned in a human being i will change the name and puts as Brahama. Also In case of Guljar Didi, we can call Didi as brahama and can we do Yoga with Shiva bap assuming brukuti of brahama face(Guljar Dadi jii). Manu Murli points says braham brukuti me muj bap ko yad karo.
thank

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by mbbhat » 13 Aug 2012

- is it not?
I had expressed my not sure feeling here.
OK- you were right in your expression. Thank you for correcting.

But ShivBaba has already hinted about the strict role many decades ago.

Yes, one day, it will happen. That Murli point need not ShivBaba plays strict in Kampil. OK- you may have your own views. No problem.

If at Kampil, it is strict, why not senior PBKs have become complete by now?

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by arjun » 13 Aug 2012

In many muralis Baba told that, when i enterned in a human being i will change the name and puts as Brahama. Also In case of Guljar Didi, we can call Didi as brahama and can we do Yoga with Shiva bap assuming brukuti of brahama face(Guljar Dadi jii). Manu Murli points says braham brukuti me muj bap ko yad karo.
Nobody in BKWSU calls Gulzar Dadi as Brahma. Yet, if you want to call her Brahma and remember Shiv through her you are free to do so. But it is against Shrimat.
If at Kampil, it is strict, why not senior PBKs have become complete by now?
I am not talking about individual efforts. Whatever violations of Shrimat that we are pointing out are at the level of the institution or group level. Each individual has to make his/her own effort. But BKWSU is ignoring or encouraging violations of Shrimat at institution or group level which are being strictly avoided by AIVV. Strictness of rules does not mean that each PBK will become complete as soon as he completes bhatti. Baba says we will become karmaateet in the end. The studies will continue till the end. In BKWSU, the teacher (BapDada) himself is lenient and the adminstrators are also lenient.

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by mbbhat » 13 Aug 2012

so- what is the use or result of the strictness in AIVV? ZERO?

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