On the way to Paramdham

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Re: On the way to Paramdham

Post by sachkhand » 08 Feb 2010

new knowledge wrote:... I've a query, how any Karmic action, spiritual effort or RajYoga meditation which is a conscious, thoughtfull process & which depends on (& completely occures within the field of activities of) mind, intellect & Sanskaars ultimately lead to the Paramdham which is unconscious, thoughtless world & beyond the field of activities of mind, intellect & Sanskaars??
I think this has been explained even by the Bhakti marg Gurus.
Souls are bound to this body and world due to wrong understanding by the intellect and by wrong sanskaras due to wrong interests of our mind.
As to remove a thorn in our feet, we use another sharp thorn, we need to use the same instruments i.e., intellect and mind to clear the wrong sanskaras and to know our wrong understanding. When our intellect understands for sure that this body is different from the real I, then the job is over. As in the example of the thorn, where we not only throw away the thorn but the other sharp device too, here too there is no need to use intellect or mind further. FULL STOP.
:neutral:
Sanjeev.

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Re: The world drama is not Eternal.

Post by shivsena » 17 Feb 2010

new knowledge wrote:
But, the Paramdham exists also during those few seconds; so only the Paramdham is Eternal. Hence, Paramdham is described as Akhand Mahaajyothi tatwa (अखंड महाज्योति तत्व).[/color]
Dear new knowledge Bhai.

Those who feel that Paramdham is a golden red- coloured world in outer space(Akhand Mahaajyothi tatwa) and bindishiv returns to this world after destruction, are tatwa-gyanis(like sannyasis), as they have made God Shiva as nivritti-marg [Murlis say: ''ShivBaba kabhi nivritti marg wala banta hi nahin, ShivBaba sadaa pravritti-marg wala hai''....ie shiv cannot be seperated from his no 1 shakti.]

shivsena.

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Re: On the way to Paramdham

Post by new knowledge » 14 May 2010

new knowledge wrote:today one of my PBK friends told me that there is no subtle body in the Golden & Silver Ages; and that the subtle bodies get shaped (due to karmic accounts?) from the Copper Age. Thus, when a soul incarnates (from Paramdham) on the earth, during the period of the Golden or Silver Age, it directly gets a corporeal body in the womb of his mother without passing through subtle body stage. But if that soul incarnates here in the Copper or Iron Age, he do not enter into the womb; he first enters into a readymade corporeal body of another soul; in that body, his subtle body gets shaped & then he takes a physical birth by entering into the womb.
1)Is this in accordance with Murlis & Avyakt Vanis or Ved-Shashras?
rudraputra wrote:yes of course in Murli it had been said that "Christ aate hi jesus ke sharir mein pravesh karta hai.Pavitra atma hoti hai na."
and then it has been stated that "Krishna aur Radhe ka janm Satyug mein hota hai jaha sukh hi sukh hai."
....actually here we can see that in Satyug(and Tretayug too) souls take birth through womb but in dwaparyug(and Kaliyug too) descending souls,since are in pure stage,they cannot enter the womb which undergoes viscous practices so it enters the human body and enjoys the first so called life without taking the burden of dukh or sorrow.....this is true for all
a)I have gone through these Murli points. But. it is not clear in these Murli points that whether a soul descends on earth directly from Paramdham or from other worlds and that whether he has subtle body or not when he enters into a readymade body after his descendence on earth. It is a wrong BKWSU assumption that a soul descends on earth directly from Paramdham. Actually souls incarnate on earth from Paramdham step by step passing through various worlds – casual, subtle etc. And his subtle body gets shaped during his journey from Paramdham to earth and it may be a possibility that he enters in a body of another soul with his own subtle body when he incarnates first time on earth.
b)And these Murli points do not explain why there is no necessary of subtle bodies in the Golden and Silver Ages; and why and how subtle bodies get shaped in the Copper and Iron Ages,
new knowledge wrote:2)If the subtle body is the outcome of the negative Karmic accounts (from the Copper Age), why.....why, Farishtas (फरिश्ता) are viewed in the subtle bodies even though their Karmic accounts have been settled & they have no any Sanskaars of negativity?
rudeaputra wrote:....sorry but who told you that farishta's are having no karmic accounts and no negativity in sanskars?....this is wrong....subtle body is the stage of soul where body consciousness is present not in an elaborate form as what normally is but yes atleast in core form,in concentrated form and you know concentrated things although is less but quite poweful than the diluted ones....
Sorry. I take my words back and I accept that some Farishtas may have negative karmic accounts; but I am talking about those Farishtas who are believed to be Brahmin-so-Farishta who are very pure and have very less karmic accounts. And your reply does not explain if the subtle body is the outcome of negative karmic accounts and impurity. why those Farishtas, with very less karmic accounts and high level of purity, are viewed in a subtle body stage.
new knowledge wrote:3) If a soul is unconscious in the Paramdham & he cannot awake in his consciousness without entering into a corporeal body, why the corporeal body is termed as the gross body which is inert? How can the gross/inert body be the medium to awake the soul in his conscious stage? If this is so, does not this logically mean that the more the affinity towards inert/corporeal body, the more the consciousness a soul achieves?? And as the entrance of a soul into an inert body awakes(?) the consciousness within a soul, why to practise to detach from body-consciousness? Why not to practise to be more & more body-conscious?
rudraputra wrote:a)...what and how do you define consciousness of soul as?
b)..sodium kept in kerosene remain calm but when comes in contact with water vapour or kept out of kerosene it catches fire.....now you cant say that sodium became conscious with vapour and remained unconscious with kerosene.....soul in Paramdham stays as thoughtless energy point.....these are like viruses which stays like an object without any life but comes to action only with host....similarly soul in Paramdham is ....but when it comes to host that is it's body or any body it comes into activity.....thinking starts at this stage....now you can name it as consciousness or whatever you like but the concept remains the same
a)Consciousness may be defined as the awareness of a soul of his own real identity – his original eternal nature (Chaitanya-swaroop). And the consciousness of that soul gets fully emerged i.e., he is aware of his original eternal nature only when that soul is in complete silent stage in Paramdham. But when he descends on the earth and enters in a body, his consciousness gets degraded i.e. he forgets his original eternal identity.
b) The examples of sodium and viruses are not applicable to soul. For a soul, to come into more action does not mean to be in more consciousness. The nature of a soul is to be in silent and that is the awakened – conscious stage. As per this definition. a soul is nearly unconscious when he is in action or thoughts, and he is fully conscious (Chaitanya-swaroop) when he is in complete silent and thoughtless stage.

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Re: On the way to Paramdham

Post by new knowledge » 15 May 2010

new knowledge wrote:today one of my PBK friend told me that there is no subtle body in the Golden & Silver Age; and that the subtle bodies get shaped (due to karmic accounts?) from the Copper Age. Thus, when a soul incarnates (from Paramdham) on the earth, during the period of the Golden or Silver Age, it directly gets a corporeal body in the womb of his mother without passing through subtle body stage. But if that soul incarnates here in the Copper or Iron Age, he do not enter into the womb; he first enters into a readymade corporeal body of another soul, in that body, his subtle body gets shaped & then he takes a physical birth by entering into the womb.
1) Is this in accordance with Murlis & Avyakt Vanis or Ved-Shashras?
mbbhat wrote:Better PBKs only answer to this. But I would like to ask an additional question here. So acording to PBKs, for a soul that takes just one birth in a Kalpa does not enter in mothers' womb. Can we give title AYONIJ to them?
Good question. But let me know what is the BK philosophy about those souls who take only one birth. Do they enter in mother’s womb or do they directly enter into a body of another soul?
new knowledge wrote:2) If the subtle body is the outcome of the negative Karmic accounts (from the Copper Age), why.....why, Farishtas (फरिश्ता) are viewed in the subtle bodies even though their Karmic accounts have been settled & they have no any Sanskaars of negativity?
mbbhat wrote:a) I am not sure whether subtle body exists in heaven. But most probably there is a Murli point that says animals do not have subtle bodies.
b) One arguement can be:- A sinner as well as the one who conquers sin use mind and intellects to a considerable extent. One uses negatively, the other positively. So extra or more(whatever you can say) consciousness, subtle body can be formed. Deities are like buddus(ignorant). There is no extra thinking.
a) Dear brother mbbhat, animals do not have fully developed subtle bodies, but their consciousness definitely have links with subtle elements i.e., undeveloped subtle bodies. Consciousness (of animals or human beings) can’t be awakened only by the link with a gross body, A support of subtle body (developed or undeveloped) is essential.
b) I agree that a sinner uses more nind power and intellect; but I can’t accept that the one who conquers sin (for example, a Farishta with higher purity stage) also uses more mind power and intellect as he is in a silent and thoughtless stage, A sinner has less mind power but he consumes it more; and that one who conquers sin has more mind power but consumes it less.
new knowledge wrote:3a) If a soul is unconscious in the Paramdham & he cannot awake in his consciousness without entering into a corporeal body, why the corporeal body is termed as the gross body which is inert? How can the gross/inert body be the medium to awake the soul in his conscious stage?
mbbhat wrote: Car is definitely jada(inert). As soon as driver enters/uses it become active.
This proves that a driver is essential to activate a car; but this does not prove that the driver becomes active only when he enters a car.
new knowledge wrote:3b) If this is so, does not this logically mean that the more the affinity towards inert/corporeal body, the more the consciousness a soul achieves??
mbbhat wrote:Correct. BKs are said to forget the present body. Murli says to remember 84 cars (births= bodies). So as one thinks more bodies, he becomes more soul conscious. But if one is caught in present body, it is indication of bodyconsciousness. A driver should not be caught/influenced in/by one car.
Such type of irrational thinking has led BKWSU to degradation.
new knowledge wrote:4) How do Golden Aged souls awake in their full conscious, 16 degree Sato-pradhaan stage, within no time, when they incarnate on the earth from Paramdham where they are supposed to be complete unconscious ??
mbbhat wrote:It is like sprouting of a seed. It can remain in same stage. When it comes in comapny of water, it sprouts. It is also like switching on a battery. When a load is connected to bulb, immediately current flows and bulb glows. Similarly when soul enters a body, there is experience in soul as well as energy in body.
Sprouting of a seed or lightening of a bulb do not occur within no time as the Golden Aged souls (as believed by BKs) awake in their full conscious, 16 degree Sato-pradhaan stage, within no time, when they incarnate on the earth from Paramdham where they are supposed to be complete unconscious. how is that possible?

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Mool Vatan

Post by new knowledge » 17 May 2010

Dear arjunbhai, a special question to you. What do you mean by Mool Vatan?

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Paramdham is not incorporeal world

Post by new knowledge » 06 Jun 2010

One of the basic postulate of BKWSU is that God and Paramdham are incorporeal, which goes against some references in vedic scriptures. according to vedas, our ultimate goal is to go even beyond the incorporeal stage. saint kabir says that the one who, after upliftment, achieves only incorporeal stage, which is perishable, may be entitled as 'Jeev'; and that one who goes beyond to the incorporeal stage - to the unlimited imperishable realm of yogmaya may be entitled as "hans" and that one who goes to Paramdham, even beyond yogmaya, is 'paramhans'. also as shiv is incorporeal, he is not god - the final authority.

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Re: On the way to Paramdham

Post by new knowledge » 12 Jun 2010

Dear brother mbbhat, while i was doing 7-day course of Godly knowledge of BKs, i was taught that there is the Brahm element - the sixth element of the nature - in Paramdham. what is this Brahm element?
And how this Brahm element differs from other 5 elements of the nature - earth, water, air, fire and sky (space)?
And what is the difference between Brahm and ParBrahm?

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Re: On the way to Paramdham

Post by mbbhat » 16 Jun 2010

new knowledge soul wrote:- Good question. But let me know what is the BK philosophy about those souls who take only one birth. Do they enter in mother’s womb or do they directly enter into a body of another soul?
Sorry that i did not see your posts/querries.
My reply:-
That point is not specifically said in Murlis. But I think all the BKs believe those who take just one birth enter into mother's womb.

BK philosophy believes - all the souls (except ShivBaba and some of the souls of the religious fathers) enter into mother's womb

new knowledge wrote:....what is this Brahm element? And how this Brahm element differs from other 5 elements of the nature - earth, water, air, fire and sky (space)? And what is the difference between Brahm and ParBrahm?
There is no difference between them. The following is part of lecture of a BK soul which I also presently believe.
Complete Geography: The infinite space is divided into two parts- Inner space and Outer Space. The inner space consists of four elements namely earth(soil), water, air and heat. The inner space itself is considered as the fifth element. It is called as aakaasha (means just space= empty space). i.e. the first four elements are situated in the fifth element. Since the inner space(aakaasha) contains physical elements, it is called as Corporeal World(CW) or Physical World(PW) or the World of Five Elements of Nature. The outer space that is the region outside the Physical World(PW) and is called as the Incorporeal World(IW).

Hence PW consists of five elements and these are called as five elements(tatwas) of nature. {tatwa =element}. Boundary of PW is the same as that of Aakasha tatwa. Hence sometimes, the words PW and aakaasha tatwa are used synominously(to mean the same). A process called CHANGE continuously occurs in the PW due to the nature of its elements. This is the world where we presently live or do action through our body. There are thoughts, speech and actions in PW.

The space beyond the boundary of the PW is the IW. IW does not contain the elements that exist in PW. No change occurs in IW. To identify it as separately (also since it is detached from other five), it is called as sixth element.


So the space where change occurs is corporeal world and space where change does not occur is IW.

2)Brahma and Parbrahm are same.

brahm = IW = sixth element.

It is paar = far beyond this unverse (Corporeal world). Hence it is also called as Par_Brahm

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Re: On the way to Paramdham

Post by mbbhat » 16 Jun 2010

new knowledge wrote: If the subtle body is the outcome of the negative Karmic accounts (from the Copper Age), why.....why, Farishtas (फरिश्ता) are viewed in the subtle bodies even though their Karmic accounts have been settled & they have no any Sanskaars of negativity?
Sorry- my explanation was incomplete.
There are two types of corporeal bodies- impure and pure. Similarly subtle bodies also can be of pure and impure. I was talking about impure subtle bodies. So wrote like that.

Pure souls who conquer body consciousness have pure subtle bodies. But once again i say- no one can conquer body consciousness 100%. Hence even faristas (pure souls) have subtle bodies. Murli points cleary say- I alone do not have body. Even BVS have subtle bodies".
Dear Brother mbbhat, animals do not have fully developed subtle bodies, but their consciousness definitely have links with subtle elements i.e., undeveloped subtle bodies.
May be- but since their intellect's capacity is less, they are not likely to get into subtle forms. That is- they cannot realize the practical situation just with subtle body.

For example- One may have some money. But it may be insufficient to purchase the thing. similarly their consciousness may not be enough to form subtle bodies. Of course, animal souls also have sanskaar which take account of those.

This is my belief. I have already said- I am not sure. Also Murli says- do not think of animals. first you become pure. So I do not have enough data. These are just my churning.
Consciousness (of animals or human beings) can’t be awakened only by the link with a gross body, A support of subtle body (developed or undeveloped) is essential.
This may be your belief. I have no problem. But do you have proof?
) I agree that a sinner uses more mind power and intellect; but I can’t accept that the one who conquers sin (for example, a Farishta with higher purity stage) also uses more mind power and intellect as he is in a silent and thoughtless stage, A sinner has less mind power but he consumes it more; and that one who conquers sin has more mind power but consumes it less.
what I mean is stress on intellect and not the usage.
stress = load/capacity.

so stress is lesser and becomes zero even though they use their mind and intellect to the highest extent= powerful thoughts. They become naturally powerful.
new knowledge wrote:3a) If a soul is unconscious in the Paramdham & he cannot awake in his consciousness without entering into a corporeal body, why the corporeal body is termed as the gross body which is inert? How can the gross/inert body be the medium to awake the soul in his conscious stage?
I do not say it is inert(= liveless). there is live- but in the incognito form. There is also a Murli point- Jab tum shantidham may ho toh jaaganti jyoti ho = when you are in Shatidham, you are like awakened souls.

Also there is a Murli point that says- Mutki ko bhi varsaa hee kahenge= Even liberation is also called as property.

My research is going on. Thank you.

something releveant- When you put seed in the water, it begins to sprout. till there it seems to be like inert. in one sense just seed (without contact of water) can be called as liveless. But in another sense it is not so.
mbbhat wrote: Car is definitely jada(inert). As soon as driver enters/uses it become active.
new knowledge replied:- This proves that a driver is essential to activate a car; but this does not prove that the driver becomes active only when he enters a car.
Definitely. But a car conscious person will be like jada when he is out of car. Only those who are not car conscious will be active when they are out of car. Similarly I think shiv will be conscious (who is 100% soul conscious in reality) even in Paramdham, but other souls fail.
If this is so, does not this logically mean that the more the affinity towards inert/corporeal body, the more the consciousness a soul achieves??
Definitely not- due to the above explanations.
Such type of irrational thinking has led BKWSU to degradation.
I respect your belief as part of drama. I am sorry that I did not see the posts and could not reply at right time
[Since for long time, there was discussion between you and Rudraputra, I did not open this thread].
How do Golden Aged souls awake in their full conscious, 16 degree Sato-pradhaan stage, within no time, when they incarnate on the earth from Paramdham where they are supposed to be complete unconscious ??
Already explained- eg: sprouting of seed. Who said- in no time?

Another eg is- A person having good health will have higher conscious as soon as he awakens. Those whose health is not good, take some minutes to get active. A battery may be idle = no current flows when isolated. but when you connect the load, current starts flowing instantly.
Sprouting of a seed or lightening of a bulb do not occur within no time as the Golden Aged souls (as believed by BKs) awake in their full conscious, 16 degree Sato-pradhaan stage, within no time, when they incarnate on the earth from Paramdham where they are supposed to be complete unconscious. how is that possible?
Who said- Golden Aged souls awaken in no time? In fact, it will be slower than the speed of closing the switch and flow of current.

Even the last final paper is said to be of one second!

Just think what is the necessity of fastness? that too- when BKs believe all the souls in Golden Age enter into womb! - It can be as slow as that of sprouting of seed or even slower.

In fact, when SriKrishn takes birth, he will not be knowing that- I am vishw Maharaj. He knows that later. The thing is- it happens as if it is natural without any effort.

The logic of speed:- The speed of mind should be more than that of effect on body. That is all! When during destruction(final paper), the body is affected by external situations. It will definitely take fraction of a second for the paristhiti (situation) to affect on body which will inturn affect soul, is it not? so the requirement is- the souls should be able to escape from that situation. That is- it should be able to attain bodyless stage within that period. That is all.

In most of the Murlis- Baba says- in a second, sometiems Baba has also said- Ek second se bhi kum samay may apney ko sthith kar saktey ho?= Can you seat yourself in the right stage within less that a second?
Baba has never said- in zero time.

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Re: On the way to Paramdham

Post by mbbhat » 18 Jun 2010

Dear new knowledge soul,

The Paramdham is never said as inert world. It is called as land silence or of liberation.

Just see- Even sattyug is called as liberation in life.

See the common word- liberation/mukti both in shantidham and sukhdham.

i feel the stage in Paramdham is of ever readyness. It is not inert. But since there is no eagerness to descend (every soul comes at its own time), it might have been called as inert.

And- i think PBKs call Paramdham as inert. BKs do not use that word much. They say silence world.

thank you for the discussion.

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How can the soul go to Heaven?

Post by new knowledge » 12 May 2011


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Re: On the way to Paramdham

Post by shivsena » 13 May 2011

To all bk-pbk brothers.

Just sharing a Murli point on Paramdham.

ShivBaba says in Murli 6-5-87: " The sweet silent Soul World is unlimited....you cannot find its end...Baba says you need not go there to search anything...there is no benefit in doing this....they go beyong the stars to find the Soul World and the Supreme Soul...but what is the use....this is not the way to find the Father or have Yoga with HIM."

The above Murli point clearly says that Father shiv is not to be remembered in some golden red light word Paramdham above but one has to find out the yartharth roop of ShivBaba and remember Him.

shivsena.

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Re: On the way to Paramdham

Post by pbkindiana » 13 May 2011

shivsena wrote:
Just sharing a Murli point on Paramdham.

ShivBaba says in Murli 6-5-87: " The sweet silent Soul World is unlimited....you cannot find its end...Baba says you need not go there to search anything...there is no benefit in doing this....they go beyong the stars to find the Soul World and the Supreme Soul...but what is the use....this is not the way to find the Father or have Yoga with HIM."

The above Murli point clearly says that Father Shiv is not to be remembered in some golden red light word Paramdham above but one has to find out the yartharth roop of ShivBaba and remember Him.
Yes to have Yoga with the Father is not to include a fairy godmother in Father's role as it is said is SM that "I am sitting in this body" and "there are two souls" and "as I enter Shankar" but it has never been stated that "I and Om Radhey's soul are sitting in this body" or that "I and Om Radhey's soul enter Shankar."

indie.

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Re: On the way to Paramdham

Post by Roy » 13 May 2011

shivsena wrote:ShivBaba says in Murli 6-5-87: " The sweet silent Soul World is unlimited....you cannot find its end...Baba says you need not go there to search anything...there is no benefit in doing this....they go beyong the stars to find the Soul World and the Supreme Soul...but what is the use....this is not the way to find the Father or have Yoga with HIM."The above Murli point clearly says that Father shiv is not to be remembered in some golden red light word Paramdham above but one has to find out the yartharth roop of ShivBaba and remember Him.
I agree Shivsena Bhai, and this is exactly what is taught in AK. ShivBaba(Shiv+Baba Dixit-yatharth roop) tell us in AK, that we should bring down the stage of Paramdham(Nirikari) to earth. However, imo, this point also goes against your belief, that Paramdham(the sweet silent world) does not exist!

Roy

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Re: On the way to Paramdham

Post by mbbhat » 14 May 2011

shivsena wrote:ShivBaba says in Murli 6-5-87: " The sweet silent Soul World is unlimited....you cannot find its end...Baba says you need not go there to search anything...there is no benefit in doing this....they go beyong the stars to find the Soul World and the Supreme Soul...but what is the use....this is not the way to find the Father or have Yoga with HIM."

1)The above Murli point clearly says that Father Shiv is not to be remembered in some golden red light word Paramdham above 2)but one has to find out the yartharth roop of ShivBaba and remember Him.

shivsena.[/color]
1) I believe this Murli point says- there is no need to go physically to Paramdham . It does not say that one should not remember Shiv in Paramdham.

2) The Murli pit does not say so.

One cannot deny that the meaning is this - "This Murli point says to remember Shiv in Paramdham by sitting here itself. There is no need to go there physically . Take your mind there, but there is no need to take body there"

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