Search for Answers.

An open forum for all ex-BKs, BKs, PBKs, ex-PBKs, Vishnu Party and ALL other Splinter Groups to post their queries to, and debate with, any member of any group congenially.
ANU
Posts: 309
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Affinity to the BKWSU: Academic
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: Sharing the results of research in the story of the Yagya collected with co-operation with western students.

Re: Search for Answers.

Post by ANU » 03 Nov 2010

shivsena wrote:Do you think that God Shiva has narrated the Sakar Murlis between 65-69 through DL and do you find them easy and clear to understand and is God Shiva explaining now the so-called Advanced Knowledge through VD.

Dear Shivsena

1. I do not find the Sakar Murlis easy to understand. However, it is not becuase of the language itself, but because of the way of narration. The perspective of the narrration in those Murlis changes very often; additionaly they seem to have been narrated on a very general level. SO general that it makes them applicable to various contexts. This brings ambiguity and creates margin for disputes that are taking place now.

2. I believed that Sakar Murlis were narrated by God Shiva and I also believed that Shiva worked through Virendra Dev Dixit. I experienced a visible and very deep change in my understanding of SM when I came across explanations delivered via Virendra Dev Dixit.

3. After years of my honest and ardent efforts to understand deep secrets and to make sense of all facts contained in SM and AK that is at this time delivered via AIVV, I found vital issues that are still unclear and somehow contradictory. Of course I speak from my perspective that is limited and conditioned by culture, place in the society, my life story and things like this, so I may be totally wrong. That is why I communicated everything and asked for additional clarification ages ago. Still waiting and not giving up, however a long time passed.

What makes me really concerned is that within the Brahmin community these ambiguities arise and increase instead of decrease. When I first came to AK I had this child-like, genuine and maybe naive thought that from now on everything should become completely clear, simple and somehow unequivocal, like "yes is yes, no is no". I had that image of God's knowledge that is extremelly accurate, that doesn't leave that margin of various interpretations and disputes, and that is really applicable to the Three Worlds. In my human vision that was the power of God's knowledge - being so accurate that its accuracy is overwhelming and brings all minds together and finishes disputes. But what can I see today? I can only say that no matter SM or AK, both after over 70 years of God's presence in the world, not only were not able to bring about any tangible descrease of ambiguities, but even became sources of conflicts, disputes and divisions. Evidences for this are quite visible in www.PBKs.info (discussions), bk independent forum or this forum.

I often heard in discussions classes conducted in AIVV that this is the fault in the human mind that arises all these ambiguities and asking questions is something like Ravan's work or asuras' work (who try to catch God in his words) or the shooting of disputes. It is also being taught that the real Suryavanshi will never raise questions, they will accept whatever ShivBaba will say no matter what he says and that whatever is says is true. These last assumptions sometimes are used as answers to students' question.

So, I am trying to make it out, to understand all this. I do desire the Truth, but it is clear that I have not reached it yet.

Does it answer your questions?

User avatar
shivsena
ex-PBK
Posts: 4330
Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-PBK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: To find out the absolute Truth.
Location: Mumbai
Contact:

Re: Search for Answers.

Post by shivsena » 04 Nov 2010

ANU wrote: So, I am trying to make it out, to understand all this. I do desire the Truth, but it is clear that I have not reached it yet.
Does it answer your questions?
Dear ANU.

Your frankness is deeply appreciated; your views about advance knowledge and the disputes in the bk-pbk family has more then answered my queries...i wish that if all PBKs would be as frank as you have been, then we could all work together to unravel the mysteries of this wonderful Godly puzzle.

shivsena.

User avatar
nivi
Posts: 244
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
Affinity to the BKWSU: PBK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: Share Murli points.

Re: Search for Answers.

Post by nivi » 04 Nov 2010

Sister Anu,

You have rasied some very valid points related to Knoweldge, and more importantly Advance knowldege for which we all seek to get clarification! But, do you think you will be able to get answers on this forum ?

Nivi

User avatar
shivsena
ex-PBK
Posts: 4330
Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-PBK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: To find out the absolute Truth.
Location: Mumbai
Contact:

Re: Search for Answers.

Post by shivsena » 06 Nov 2010

ANU wrote:
22. Who are real atheists (apart from the explanation 'those who do not know the Father'; there are few explanations of atheists in the Gyan, not necessary leading to the same conclusion)? This issue seems to be very confusing.
Dear anu.

Advance knowledge teaches that those who do not know the Father are nastik (atheists) ....but the question is which Father ???? ....is it supreme Father incorporeal shiv(who is known in all Three Worlds)....or is it the Father of humanity (who is supposedly known in bk-pbk world) !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please give your views.
shivsena.

Sach_Khand
Posts: 571
Joined: 02 May 2010
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-PBK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: Seeking Truth and Truth only.

Re: Search for Answers.

Post by Sach_Khand » 06 Nov 2010

ANU wrote:Dear Shivsena
...
I often heard in discussions classes conducted in AIVV that this is the fault in the human mind that arises all these ambiguities and asking questions is something like Ravan's work or asuras' work (who try to catch God in his words) or the shooting of disputes. It is also being taught that the real Suryavanshi will never raise questions , they will accept whatever ShivBaba will say no matter what he says and that whatever is says is true. These last assumptions sometimes are used as answers to students' question.
But Virendra Dev Dixit started asking questions from the first day itself when he came to BKs and was not satisfied by many BK brothers and sisters. just if someone ask questions, can he/she be labelled as asur?

:neutral:
Sanjeev.

ANU
Posts: 309
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Affinity to the BKWSU: Academic
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: Sharing the results of research in the story of the Yagya collected with co-operation with western students.

Re: Search for Answers.

Post by ANU » 06 Nov 2010

nivi wrote:Sister Anu, You have rasied some very valid points related to Knoweldge, and more importantly Advance knowldege for which we all seek to get clarification! But, do you think you will be able to get answers on this forum ? Nivi
Dear Nivi
I am Bhai :)
Answering your question - Why not? I am looking for facts and evidence. I believe that there are people here who keep on studying and searchig and they might know points, parts of classes, parts of unpublished materials both from BK and AK that may cast new light on these issues. Some time ago I felt that my understanding is incomplete, that there are many gaps and that there are facts that are generally taught without evidences and full understanding. I had chances to participate in an interesting exchange of experience with some students. We honestly desired to show the public that Gyan and history and human religions and science correlate. When we started the process of collecting evidences, it turned out that there are gaps and that some issues in Gyan have been communicated as axioms. Axioms are something opposite to acceptance based on understanding and evidences, meaning axioms are based on blind faith. This fact made us concerned. If we are to be those who bring the light of understanding, true consciousness, awareness and evidences to the world, if we are to be those who are to fight with blind faith and old wives' tales and at the same time we found quite a few issues that are unclear, ambiguous to us and we say that we accept something because "Baba said so and it is the truth" and we are said to "accept everything whatever is said no matter what is said", then I think we give the world a contradictory message, at least on the basis of our vibrations. Everything has been communicated to the Head of AK a long time ago (years), right after our discovery. We were told few times that ShivBaba is very busy and has no time to answer all the issue. We are still waiting for answers and help in understanding. So, nothing wrong in posting the issue here - somone might have happened to receive answers meantime.

You have mentioned that these are points that we all seek to get clarification. Having read this I understood that there are people whose intellectual wombs are not fullfilled in AK. After 70 years all together of narrating Gyan? Over 70 years of narrating Gyan and no radical change?
shivsena wrote:Dear anu.Advanced Knowledge teaches that those who do not know the Father are nastik (atheists) ....but the question is which Father ???? ....is it supreme Father incorporeal Shiv(who is known in all Three Worlds)....or is it the Father of humanity (who is supposedly known in BK-PBK world) !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Please give your views. shivsena.
Dear Shivsena, I have no idea. I wrote above that no matter BK or AK, both are narrated on such a level of generality that it may mean everything. Generality makes this knowledge safe, because when someone asks about something, the answer may be moulded and tailored. But, when we want to come to hard facts, we start banging our head against a brick wall, because there are discrepancies. Then,as I saw in discussions (http://www.pbksinfo) when questions arises, students are generally advised to believe in ShivBaba and accept everything and reject whatever is in the outside world.

"Jo bap ko nehi jante vo astik" - here baap may mean both, nirakar and Sakar. However, in AK it is taught that Sakar and nirakar are combined, and only then they can be recogised. So, I think that in AK it is about the combined coroporeal form of Shiva and Prajapita Brahma who are present in the corporeal world. It would be clear if God said clearly which Father he means. It is a question of adding one phrase that helps the human mind avoid wandering. Like in the case of Lakshmi and Narayan. It was a question of adding two words "The Confluence Age Lakshmi and Narayan" and "The Golden Age Lakshmi and Narayan".

But again, this is the question of my assumptions. As I was advised in AIVV, assumptions (angadaza lagana) is something wrong and leads to mistakes. Then, I ask which path should be followed? The path of asking for clarification in order to be sure what each word means, which was also called the path of assurs who catch God by words (http://www.pbksinfo) or leave the issue and rely on personal guessing? Eventually, when we chose the path of asking, the issue of the teacher's time arise and we fall into a circle. It is hard to believe that God who is supposed to be the Ocean of love, knowledge, mercy and all other virtues, communicates with his children like this. There must be a key to this.

What is your view on this?

May I aks you something? I saw your posts in some parts of the forum. What made you start doubting in AK? How did it happen?
Sach_Khand wrote:But Veerendra Dev Dixit started asking questions from the first day itself when he came to BKs and was not satisfied by many BK Brothers and Sisters. just if someone ask questions, can he/she be labelled as asur? :neutral: Sanjeev.
Yes, it is taught like this. It has been presented in AIVV as a proof of his greatness and independence, an indication of a king soul that only relies on the Murli and Shrimat. Yet, this attidute seems to be not encouraged now among the students of AIVV (it can be checked in classes available in http://www.pbksifo). On one hand it was said that all questions are welcome and everyone can ask, if he doesn't understand something; he should ask as long as he want until understands and ShivBaba will give answers to all questions. However, it is impossible to miss the other message delivered in classes - those who ask questions are body consious asurs, they are Ravan, the tail of questions goes after them and they catch God by words. This message may lead to suppressing doubts. People may be even afraid of raising an issue, because of fear of being called all these names.

I have been observing those discussions and asking questions for a pretty long time. And I have to admit that sometimes they way they ar econducted makes me concerned. I noticed some patterns of dealing with questions during those sessions: sometimes the answer is given directly with details; sometimes the question is ridiculed; sometimes the question is answered by the question like "So, did ShivBaba say a lie?", "You don't believe in what ShivBaba said in Murlis?"; sometimes the question is answered "This is not the time; if everything is to be said now what will be said in the future"; sometimes the answer is so general and seems to be so far the question that it arises new questions; sometimes questions are rejected as too long and only simple questions are welcome. All this gives a picture of what is actually happening in Gyan.

Well, we cannot deny that confrontation, doubts, questions made Baba Viredra a hero and his strong virodh bhav against practices in BK (such as blind faith, conformity, following the others, discouraging to ask) along with his independence, strong personality and desire to go deeper and deeper have been widely praised in AIVV teachings.

Are these values represented by Baba Virendra still cherriched in AIVV? If they are, how? If they are not, why?

Regards

User avatar
shivsena
ex-PBK
Posts: 4330
Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-PBK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: To find out the absolute Truth.
Location: Mumbai
Contact:

Re: Search for Answers.

Post by shivsena » 07 Nov 2010

anu wrote:May I aks you something? I saw your posts in some parts of the forum. What made you start doubting in AK? How did it happen?
Dear anu.

If you go through my early posts, then you will find the details of how and why i started doubting AK....it was not an overnight decision....it took a many years of reading and churning the Murlis from 2000 onwards and touchings from mataa Saraswati, that i finally arrived at the conclusion that AK is Krishna ki jhooti Gita.

I will try to find my previous posts and send you a small summary in chronological order on how i arrived at this conclusion.

shivsena.

User avatar
nivi
Posts: 244
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
Affinity to the BKWSU: PBK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: Share Murli points.

Re: Search for Answers.

Post by nivi » 07 Nov 2010

Dear Anu,

Thank you for being so courageous and brave to share your thoughts, feelings so openly on the forum.I think I may have also stumbled upon some questions like you have, but I had no one to share them with since I am not around pbk's..My connection with bk/pbk is mostly through this forum, and to be honest with you I have not heard much of the discussion. I am not sure when or for what reason they were created, but I hope it is helping Gyani souls get their questions resolved. I will try to listen to the discussions you recomended.

Nivi

ANU
Posts: 309
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Affinity to the BKWSU: Academic
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: Sharing the results of research in the story of the Yagya collected with co-operation with western students.

Re: Search for Answers.

Post by ANU » 08 Nov 2010

Dear Nivi

There are almost 1000 discussion classes. They are organised on the basis of question-answer, so maybe it would be more accurate to call them QA sessions, as the form of discussion accepts the exchange of views among parties, so it is something different from what actually takes place in AK.

I have been following those discussions for a pretty long time. DVDs can be baught in Vijay Vihar or in any mini-Madhubans or classes can be downloaded from the pbksinfo site. I have noticed that the information given in those classes is sometimes contradictory. I mean, I understand them as contradictory and of course I think why, what is behind this?

Just an example. I don't like speak without hard facts. One of pretty new discussions, vartalap 975. In the second half of it app. timing 52 minutes, a students asks Baba a question based on his former teachings that Shiva enters beads of the Rudra Mala. I myself heard this point about Shiva's entering in children many times in old classes and in discussions. When the student in the discussion class asked his question, Baba responded in a rather criticising way by asking questions that student. He denied that Shiva ever enters other children apart from mukarrar rath. And he said that it is Prajapita who enters them. Baba also said in a rather harsh way that the student had been making the shooting of omnipresence. I thought, I would like to discuss this with Baba himself and make things clear as it was he himself who used to teach that Shiva enters Rudra Mala. So, what is our fault that we based on that our understanding?

So, going back to what you said "but I hope it is helping Gyani souls get their questions resolved" - sometimes they reveal completely new points and issues (never clarified in regular classes), but at the same time they bring some contradictions. Of course, they may seem only to me be contradictory :)

ANU
Posts: 309
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Affinity to the BKWSU: Academic
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: Sharing the results of research in the story of the Yagya collected with co-operation with western students.

Shiva and ShivBaba

Post by ANU » 15 Nov 2010

Dear All participants

A student who left BKs is eager to understand AK. He needs SM points about the difference between Shiva and ShivBaba.

He read in Murli of 4.4.01 published by AIVV (Murli khand 1) a point: Shiv ko ShivBaba kahte hi hai. (Shiva is called ShivBaba.) He cannot understand why then AIVV blames BKs for their teachings that it is Shiva who is ShivBaba. He understands that remembering Brahma is wrong as he is something detructable. He received all points that AIVV gives about accurate remebrance, but he is not convinced. Where was it said in SM, he asked, that Shiva is called ShivBaba when he is in body.

If any of you has those points from Sakar Murli, please post them.

User avatar
nivi
Posts: 244
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
Affinity to the BKWSU: PBK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: Share Murli points.

Re: Search for Answers.

Post by nivi » 15 Nov 2010

Dear Anu,

A while back I have had some discussions with a pbk brother on many advance knowldege topics..The way he explained is that the first lesson in knowledge is very important as it becomes the backbone that support the entire frame of knowledge. The real effort/purushart lies in becoming soul-consious, and the rest will fall in place automoatically. You see anyone can read and listen to Murli as much as they want, but it doesn't always bring them any personal satisfaction..Infact they can get even more confused and more questions can creep up in their minds..So what is the solution to never ending questions?? This knowldege is accurate in it's own place, but it has to be understood in context..I think Murli's were spoken/written in a metaphor and so it has to be undersood in that context. Meanings can change completely if we don't listen in soul-consious state. All sorts of questions are answered when we remain in Atmic stage. I have tried this myself( not an easy thing to do but we must try) and it does work. I felt touching from Shiv Baba while remaning in that stage and many answers got resolved.

Nivi

Sach_Khand
Posts: 571
Joined: 02 May 2010
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-PBK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: Seeking Truth and Truth only.

Re: Search for Answers.

Post by Sach_Khand » 16 Nov 2010

nivi wrote:Dear Anu,

A while back I have had some discussions with a PBK Brother on many advance knowldege topics..The way he explained is that the first lesson in knowledge is very important as it becomes the backbone that support the entire frame of knowledge. The real effort/purushart lies in becoming soul-consious, and the rest will fall in place automoatically. You see anyone can read and listen to Murli as much as they want, but it doesn't always bring them any personal satisfaction..Infact they can get even more confused and more questions can creep up in their minds..So what is the solution to never ending questions?? This knowldege is accurate in it's own place, but it has to be understood in context..I think Murli's were spoken/written in a metaphor and so it has to be undersood in that context. Meanings can change completely if we don't listen in soul-consious state. All sorts of questions are answered when we remain in Atmic stage. I have tried this myself( not an easy thing to do but we must try) and it does work. I felt touching from Shiv Baba while remaning in that stage and many answers got resolved.
Nivi
So then, why did the so called PBKs criticise BKs when they gave the same above answer to the questioning followers of Virendra Dev Dixit? Now, when the so called PBKs themselves are becoming confused and have no answer they have resorted to the above answer. I think he above advice is correct i.e., to get soul conscious and read Murlis so that we can understand the Murlis correectly. But the so called PBKs made fun of this when BK sisters adviced the questioning followers of Virendra Dev Dixit then. History is repeating itself ?!!

Dear nivi, if you have got the answer to the question put up by ANU, then please try to clear the doubt.

:neutral:
Sanjeev.

User avatar
shivsena
ex-PBK
Posts: 4330
Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-PBK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: To find out the absolute Truth.
Location: Mumbai
Contact:

Re: Shiva and ShivBaba

Post by shivsena » 16 Nov 2010

ANU wrote:Dear All participants
A student who left BKs is eager to understand AK. He needs SM points about the difference between Shiva and ShivBaba.
If any of you has those points from Sakar Murli, please post them.
My understanding of Shiva and ShivBaba:

Shiva is supreme pure consciousness(powerhouse), call it whatever one likes (bindi----point of light----jyoti lingum etc etc.)....and Shiva does not stay in some jad Paramdham above as taught by BKs.....it always remains combined with his shakti (no. 1 soul ) ie paramatma and hence the two words are always recited together ie. parampita paramatma. (in scientific terms one can say that zero and one are always combined)...another analogy to understand Shiva+shakti combined is "power house and electricity"...both are always combined and can never be seperated.

So ShivBaba means shiv+shakti(no. 1 soul ie Mama Saraswati).

If we remember just supreme shiv alone then we cannot get any power from him ...just as power cannot be received from powerhouse directly except through electricity.....one can stay just next to powerhouse but if he has no electricity in his house, then one can never get any power from the powerhouse...similarly one can remember shiv(bindi-point) but one can never receive any power or inheritance from shiv directly unless we are connected to shiv through his shakti.

The equation of shiv-shakti can be summed up in one sentence.
Shiva without shakti is shav(corpse) and shakti without Shiva cannot exist.

If one can collect all points on ShivBaba from Murlis then one can easily understand the difference between Shiva and ShivBaba.

shivsena.

ANU
Posts: 309
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Affinity to the BKWSU: Academic
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: Sharing the results of research in the story of the Yagya collected with co-operation with western students.

Re: Search for Answers.

Post by ANU » 17 Nov 2010

sach-khand wrote:So then, why did the so called PBKs criticise BKs when they gave the same above answer to the questioning followers of Veerendra Dev Dixit? Now, when the so called PBKs themselves are becoming confused and have no answer they have resorted to the above answer. I think he above advice is correct i.e., to get soul conscious and read Murlis so that we can understand the Murlis correectly. But the so called PBKs made fun of this when BK Sisters adviced the questioning followers of Veerendra Dev Dixit then. History is repeating itself ?!!
There is a lot of criticism of BK in AIVV. I admit that sometimes I even feel that I have already enough. The entire identity of AIVV has been built on negation of BK and on creating two contrasted images of "WE" and "THEY". Such a high wall has been built between.... And all these critics of BKs are for PBKs, becasue all those classes containing harsh words about BKs are marked as "only for PBKs".

Sometimes Baba says that BKs are not our family, that they are worse than strangers and worse than the outside world. Recently I listened to one class in which Baba riducules them even for not wanting to listen to anything and remembering ShivBaba. On the other hand, we write in the AIVV website that BKs and PBKs are two halves of one family which will unite.

User avatar
nivi
Posts: 244
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
Affinity to the BKWSU: PBK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: Share Murli points.

Re: Search for Answers.

Post by nivi » 17 Nov 2010

Dear Sach_khand,

I am afraid I don't have answers to Anu's questions since my reasons to follow Bk/Pbk was different. I came to this knowledge at a very delicate time in my life..Lots of personal things going on..I needed to resolve them first, before fully diving into knowledge. I got Baba's touching in regards to my own personal issues going on at the time. Afterwards, my goal was to get rid of vices..Anytime I became unhappy, worried, or distressed I was reminded that it is due to my own vices that I am suffering, and no one else's fault. So my goal was to connect with Baba at a very deep soul level to resolve, and overcome my vices. As you can see I am still working on that.. In one Murli Baba reminds us that it is in intense fire of Yoga that all our sins will burn..I would like to get to that stage where my Yaad/love/remembrance is so, so powerful that I can burn all my sins.

Nivi

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests