shivsena's theory is basically flawed

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Re: shivsena's theory is basically flawed

Post by arjun » 02 Feb 2011

shivsena wrote:Mama -- DL -- VD....i find that Mama surpassed DL and VD both....and so i feel that she is no. 1 soul (paramatma combined with Shiv).
She cannot be no.1 from any angle or in any subject.
The Knowledge given by Mama Saraswati(which emerged in her intellect) was so intoxicating that it held the BKs together for 28 years
It was the knowledge given by Shiv through Brahma Baba which kept a few hundred BKs together for many years and not the knowledge given by Mama. Had she been no.1 in knowledge she would not have entered the path of knowledge on the basis of visions like Brahma Baba and many other BKs of that time.
while VD had to take the BK knowledge from some other soul....the BK knowledge did not emerge in his intellect (this is one point which goes strongly against VD to be no. 1 soul)
Baba Virendra Dev Dixit did get some basic knowledge from BKs but none was able to convince him completely. So, it was as good as not giving knowledge. He was convinced only by the study of the original Sakar Murlis.
and also to realise his part he had to churn the SM (which i believe was spoken by Mama) for 3 years
Entering the path of knowledge on the basis of study of Murlis is better than entering the path of knowledge on the basis of visions. So, he is definitely superior than Mama.

Even otherwise, if you see overall, she sustained a few hundred BKs and at a time when the world was not much degraded and when they did not face as much defamation as the PBKs or Baba Virendra Dev Dixit is facing now. They did not face the opposition from different relgions. Baba repeatedly says the biggest achievement of the Brahmins is to prove the God of Gita is not Krishna but Shiv. Mama could not do that in her lifetime. So, how can she be no.1?

Baba has said in the Murlis that the true tests will take place in the end. The one who is able to maintain a constant unshakeable stage in the end at the time of fierce destruction (mahabhari mahabharata war) will be the winner. When there were no tests at all before 1965, how can she be considered to be no.1?

When most of the BKs of her lifetime and even after her departure consider Brahma Baba to be no.1, how can she be no.1? Moreover, Baba himself has declared in the Murlis that she would become Radha or Lakshmi in the Golden Age, so how can she be no.1?

But if you still want to be her devotee it is ur sweet will.

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Re: shivsena's theory is basically flawed

Post by shivsena » 02 Feb 2011

arjun wrote:
But if you still want to be her devotee it is ur sweet will.
In Murlis it is said : "ShivBaba bahut secret hai" and imo, ShivBaba is no. 1 shivshakti (Mama)....and this fact will be known only to 108 souls ( Murlis say: Koto mein koi aur koi mein bhi koi, mere yartharth roop ko janenge")....so i think i am more comfortable to be with divine mother Mama as yartharth roop of ShivBaba.(rather than directly remembering bindi shiv in Paramdham or through the Chariot.)

Also it is said in Murlis : "jo raaj ko nahin janenge woh naaraz ho jaayenge" ("those who do not know the secret will get angry.")

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Re: shivsena's theory is basically flawed

Post by arjun » 03 Feb 2011

ShivBaba bahut secret hai" and imo, ShivBaba is no. 1 shivshakti (Mama)...and this fact will be known only to 108 souls
Please do inform us whenever these 108 souls are ready because when you can declare the part of ShivBaba as Maya Ravan or Mama as ShivBaba, then I think you alone can certify as to who all will be counted as 108 souls.

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Re: shivsena's theory is basically flawed

Post by shivsena » 04 Feb 2011

arjun wrote:
When most of the BKs of her lifetime and even after her departure consider Brahma Baba to be no.1, how can she be no.1? But if you still want to be her devotee it is ur sweet will.
Just as BKs(9lacs) consider DL as no. 1, but PBKs oppose that view and do not consider DL but VD as no. 1 soul....then 108 would also oppose the belief of PBKs that VD is not Ram's soul, but it is avaykt Mama(Ram) who is the real brahma (badi Maa)...the personified roop of ShivBaba. ...("behad ka drama repeats itself")....it is by their beliefs that first-second-third class souls will be revealed.

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Re: shivsena's theory is basically flawed

Post by arjun » 05 Feb 2011

Just as BKs(9lacs) consider DL as no. 1, but PBKs oppose that view and do not consider DL but VD as no. 1 soul....then 108 would also oppose the belief of PBKs that VD is not Ram's soul, but it is avaykt Mama(Ram) who is the real Brahma (badi Maa)...the personified roop of ShivBaba. ...("behad ka drama repeats itself")....it is by their beliefs that first-second-third class souls will be revealed.
U have the same answer for all the questions. Its ur wish.

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Re: shivsena's theory is basically flawed

Post by Roy » 05 Feb 2011

Dear Shivsena Bhai
shivsena wrote:Just as BKs(9lacs) consider DL as no. 1, but PBKs oppose that view and do not consider DL but VD as no. 1 soul....then 108 would also oppose the belief of PBKs that VD is not Ram's soul, but it is avaykt Mama(Ram) who is the real brahma (badi Maa)...the personified roop of ShivBaba. ...("behad ka drama repeats itself")....it is by their beliefs that first-second-third class souls will be revealed.
Okay then, so lets say I am starting to buy into your theory a little... how is all this going to play out? What part is Mama going to play in the Golden Age?.. who is her no 2?.. where does this leave Brahma Baba?.. and what about souls becoming Nar to Narayan? By coming up with this new theory you throw out all that has been taught in Knowledge up to this point; you don't even believe in Paramdham, which is one of the most basic teachings of Shiv. In order to accept your theories, we have to throw out virtually all we've been taught in Gyan up to this point, and if you are somehow right in all of this, for me would be a very bitter pill to swallow, on the basis that we've been told lies in the Murli all these years, and that would make me angry! If you want us to take you more seriously, you need to come up with a more rounded and cohesive theory. You are asking us to throw out a huge amount of what has been taught in Gyan, but you have nothing else to replace it with, other than Mama is Ram. Your churnings in order to be valued, need to be indicating more clearly who is going to be playing which roles, and how this will play out in a practical sense. You get my attention up to a point, but then just leave me hanging with no support, because to accept what you say, i have to accept that most of the Gyan taught in the Murli is more or less a lie, or misdirection, and that seems very cruel to me.

Roy

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Re: shivsena's theory is basically flawed

Post by shivsena » 05 Feb 2011

arjun wrote: U have the same answer for all the questions. Its ur wish.
Knowing Ram's soul--ALAF(Ramshivbaba) is the key to understanding everything and a cure for all evils (panacea...ie Ramban known in Bhakti.)
In Vanis also it is said: "only when you know who is Ram, then only you get aaram(comfort)("Ram bina aaram kahan")"

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Re: shivsena's theory is basically flawed

Post by arjun » 05 Feb 2011

roy wrote:You are asking us to throw out a huge amount of what has been taught in Gyan, but you have nothing else to replace it with, other than Mama is Ram.

I fully agree with you. In fact I wanted to raise this issue, too.

So far he has nothing to offer other than Mama = Ram. And since it is he who has first of all brought up this theory of Mama=Ram (after the demise of Brahma Baba) he should be considered greater than Mama. Likewise, I suppose he will start selecting the beads of the rosary of 108.

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Re: shivsena's theory is basically flawed

Post by Roy » 05 Feb 2011

arjun wrote:Likewise, I suppose he will start selecting the beads of the rosary of 108.
We'd better be nice to him then! :D

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Re: shivsena's theory is basically flawed

Post by arjun » 05 Feb 2011

roy wrote:We'd better be nice to him then! :D
Since I have opposed him the most, I am certain to be doomed. ;-)

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Re: shivsena's theory is basically flawed

Post by nivi » 05 Feb 2011

Dear Arjun Bhai and Roy Bhai,


Baba has been brining up Ashta Deva (top 8 souls) quite a bit lately, and one of the key characteristics of these divine soul is that from day one they enter on this path of Knowledge they show 'nashta moha' meaning 'detachment' from worldly relationship, material things, status, fame etc..This a very tall order and very few have achieved it.. Also, these 8 divine souls remain shayogi( loyal, faithful) to Baba for maximum amount of time, for many, many births.

Shivsena on the other hand has been opposing Baba and insulting Godly Knowledge and PBKs for many years now...So, I think he is extremely foolish to think he has any chance to get a seat in the rosary.
He is highly likely(based on his actions, words) be a part of the Nasta deva ( those who cause destruction) of God's family and Swarg/ Heaven. Baba has said many times that Madhauban will become Shisa ki mahaal (palace of glass) and everyone in this Brahmin family will exhibit their part by their actions and words. BapDada is not going to write on board for anyone part.

Nivi

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Re: shivsena's theory is basically flawed

Post by shivsena » 06 Feb 2011

arjun wrote: Mama -- DL -- VD....i find that Mama surpassed DL and VD both....and so i feel that she is no. 1 soul (paramatma combined with Shiv).
She cannot be no.1 from any angle or in any subject.
From which ever angle you look, she will appear as angel mother (no. 1 soul Ram parampita paramatma) to all those who see her with the third eye of knowledge ( churnings from Murlis and Vanis)....while those who look at her with the physical eyes will only see her female body.

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Re: shivsena's theory is basically flawed

Post by arjun » 06 Feb 2011

shivsena wrote:From which ever angle you look, she will appear as angel mother (no. 1 soul Ram parampita paramatma) to all those who see her with the third eye of knowledge ( churnings from Murlis and Vanis)....while those who look at her with the physical eyes will only see her female body.
When there is no body at all in practical whom will they see as Mama? You will say it is the body of Baba Virendra Dev Dixit. But for that to happen, you will have to first certify the rosary of 108 who will go and tell Baba Virendra Dev Dixit that the soul speaking through you is not Shiv but Om Radhey Mama. So, first try to prepare that rosary of 108. Or at least tell us when the second bead is ready (the first bead is of course you).
nivi wrote:Shivsena on the other hand has been opposing Baba and insulting Godly Knowledge and PBKs for many years now...So, I think he is extremely foolish to think he has any chance to get a seat in the rosary.
He is highly likely(based on his actions, words) be a part of the Nasta deva ( those who cause destruction) of God's family and Swarg/ Heaven. Baba has said many times that Madhauban will become Shisa ki mahaal (palace of glass) and everyone in this Brahmin family will exhibit their part by their actions and words. BapDada is not going to write on board for anyone part.
But we have no right to declare anybody's part when Baba himself does not do that. It could be possible that shivsena Bhai changes his beliefs and gallops ahead of many of us in future. But as you said everyone would reveal his own part through his/her actions.

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Re: shivsena's theory is basically flawed

Post by nivi » 06 Feb 2011

Arjun Bhai,

What I meant to say was we can observe ourselves, and other's behavior and see what type of shooting we are doing right now.
By no means I know Shivsena's part, nor does it matter to me one bit..But, when he goes around preaching false information and acts like he knows it all it is quite disturbing.
Baba has said many times 'Anth matey so gatey' meaning whatever we have practised and the purushart we have done the longest, that is what we will become at the last moment.

Nivi

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Re: shivsena's theory is basically flawed

Post by arjun » 07 Feb 2011

nivi wrote:What I meant to say was we can observe ourselves, and other's behavior and see what type of shooting we are doing right now.
By no means I know Shivsena's part, nor does it matter to me one bit..But, when he goes around preaching false information and acts like he knows it all it is quite disturbing.
Baba has said many times 'Anth matey so gatey' meaning whatever we have practised and the purushart we have done the longest, that is what we will become at the last moment.
I agree brother.

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