Controversy - let's live what we preach

An open forum for all ex-BKs, BKs, PBKs, ex-PBKs, Vishnu Party and ALL other Splinter Groups to post their queries to, and debate with, any member of any group congenially.
User avatar
nivi
Posts: 244
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
Affinity to the BKWSU: PBK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: Share Murli points.

Re: Controversy - let's live what we preach

Post by nivi » 19 Mar 2011

Sach_Khand wrote: BETTER LATE THAN NEVER.
:neutral:
Sanjeev.
So true, this disaster with such human suffering really puts things into prospective and makes us realize what is important in life. We are all the same as human beings, we have the same hopes and dreams and love for our families. And we all share the same home mother earth. God Bless the people of Japan. We watch in amazement at their grace and dignity in this time of such tragedy and am praying for them.

User avatar
arjun
PBK
Posts: 11584
Joined: 01 May 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: PBK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: To exchange views with past and present members of BKWSU and its splinter groups.
Location: India

Re: Controversy - let's live what we preach

Post by arjun » 19 Mar 2011

nivi wrote:God Bless the people of Japan. We watch in amazement at their grace and dignity in this time of such tragedy and am praying for them.
I agree. Their courage and calm is praiseworthy.

User avatar
nivi
Posts: 244
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
Affinity to the BKWSU: PBK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: Share Murli points.

Re: Controversy - let's live what we preach

Post by nivi » 19 Mar 2011

Dear Arjun Bhai,

I have often wondered why Japan is called the "land of the rising Sun".., besides being in the east!?! It's interesting to note that for such a fast paced technologically advance country their culture is deeply rooted in ancient tradition and respect for their elders. It would be nice to understand them from Gyan perspective.

Nivi

ANU
Posts: 309
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Affinity to the BKWSU: Academic
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: Sharing the results of research in the story of the Yagya collected with co-operation with western students.

Re: Controversy - let's live what we preach

Post by ANU » 19 Mar 2011

People have been misusing the world "equality" for their selfish motives and actually exploiting the same people whom they want to make equal with the other higher class of people.
Exploitation has two sides - the one who exploits and the one who let's to exploit him. Don't fall in the trap which AIVV teacher created. He teaches that women are so poor and exploited and completely helpless, because men exploit them and fails to remind each time that they let men to exploit them, so they remain fully responsible for their condition and creating men-exploiters. Let's say "smoke without fire doesn't exist." The victim creates the oppressor to the same extend the oppressor creates the victim. They feed each other.

If we follow the theory of AIVV, the pattern of that exploitation must have been created in AIVV ashram and Prajapita with Prajamata play the key role in it.

User avatar
arjun
PBK
Posts: 11584
Joined: 01 May 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: PBK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: To exchange views with past and present members of BKWSU and its splinter groups.
Location: India

Re: Controversy - let's live what we preach

Post by arjun » 19 Mar 2011

nivi wrote:I have often wondered why Japan is called the "land of the rising Sun".., besides being in the east!?! It's interesting to note that for such a fast paced technologically advance country their culture is deeply rooted in ancient tradition and respect for their elders. It would be nice to understand them from Gyan perspective.
Sister nivi, it could be possible that Japan represents the Suryavanshis (at least among the seed-souls of Buddhists) who realize the Sun of Knowledge before everyone else. It is mentioned in a Sakar Murli that Japanese consider themselves to be Suryavanshis.
OGS,
Arjun

User avatar
Roy
Posts: 1318
Joined: 17 Feb 2009
Affinity to the BKWSU: questioning BK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: I have been associated with Raj Yoga since 1985, and have only quite recently come to learn of the PBKs and this forum, which i find a great place to get deeper insights into all things Gyani, and hear input from many sides. I find this most healthy, stimulating, and informative, and hope this continues for some time to come.
Location: UK

Re: Controversy - let's live what we preach

Post by Roy » 19 Mar 2011

ANU wrote:Exploitation has two sides - the one who exploits and the one who let's to exploit him. Don't fall in the trap which AIVV teacher created. He teaches that women are so poor and exploited and completely helpless, because men exploit them and fails to remind each time that they let men to exploit them, so they remain fully responsible for their condition and creating men-exploiters. Let's say "smoke without fire doesn't exist." The victim creates the oppressor to the same extend the oppressor creates the victim. They feed each other.

If we follow the theory of AIVV, the pattern of that exploitation must have been created in AIVV ashram and Prajapita with Prajamata play the key role in it.
Imo Anu Bhai, there is some truth in what you say; but powerful sanskars and karmas exist, that make this situation very difficult to turn around. I believe ShivBaba's intention, is to address the practical reality of the here and now, that males in general, dominate, and misuse women; whilst at the same time, knowing that the study of Knowledge and the remembrance of God, will eventually free them(mothers), from their karmic shackles. ShivBaba says, the greatest weakness of mothers is their attachment. You only have to look at any lokik mother who has children, to witness this reality.

I would be interested to hear the point of view of a sister(s), on this matter.

Roy

User avatar
nivi
Posts: 244
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
Affinity to the BKWSU: PBK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: Share Murli points.

Re: Controversy - let's live what we preach

Post by nivi » 19 Mar 2011

"Exploitation has two sides - the one who exploits and the one who let's to exploit him. Don't fall in the trap which AIVV teacher created. He teaches that women are so poor and exploited and completely helpless, because men exploit them and fails to remind each time that they let men to exploit them, so they remain fully responsible for their condition and creating men-exploiters. Let's say "smoke without fire doesn't exist." The victim creates the oppressor to the same extend the oppressor creates the victim. They feed each other.

If we follow the theory of AIVV, the pattern of that exploitation must have been created in AIVV ashram and Prajapita with Prajamata play the key role in it.
Dear Anu Bhai,

Imo, In dwapar and Kaliyug as body conscious creeps up our gender is usually the first thing we identify ourselves with, and it just snowballs from there onwards with all other vices. Males in general being physically stronger start to exploit the physically weaker. Baba says "Saab Purush duryodhan dushtyasaasan hai". I am assuming it means all males are aggressive warrior types who like to fight (Arjun Bhai, please help with the translation!).. Shiv Baba also says he is here for the upliftment of Mothers/Women who get the most degraded and exploited in the end. Baba says women have become "Abla Naari' (weak, helpless women) and it is actually a worldwide phenomena, and not just in India! Having lived most of my life in North America I can tell you here also women are objectified and exploited, although the laws protect them.

Nivi

User avatar
arjun
PBK
Posts: 11584
Joined: 01 May 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: PBK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: To exchange views with past and present members of BKWSU and its splinter groups.
Location: India

Re: Controversy - let's live what we preach

Post by arjun » 20 Mar 2011

nivi wrote:Baba says "Saab Purush duryodhan dushtyasaasan hai". I am assuming it means all males are aggressive warrior types who like to fight (Arjun Bhai, please help with the translation!)
The above quote 'sab purush Duryodhan, Dushasan hain' means 'all men are Duryodhans and Dushasans'. Duryodhan and Dushasan were the Kaurava brothers who deceitfully plotted the game of dice and not only made their cousins, the Pandavas lose their kingdom but also caused the public humiliation of their wife Draupadi. Duryodhan used wicked means to win the game of dice with the help of his deceitful maternal uncle Shakuni while Dushasan was the man who tried to disrobe Draupadi in the packed courtroom.

In AK Baba says Duryodhan means the one who wages a wicked war (dusht yuddh) and Dushasan means the one who rules in a wicked way (dusht shaasan).

User avatar
nivi
Posts: 244
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
Affinity to the BKWSU: PBK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: Share Murli points.

Re: Controversy - let's live what we preach

Post by nivi » 20 Mar 2011

Thank you Arjun Bhai for the translation/ explanation!


Nivi

User avatar
shivsena
ex-PBK
Posts: 4338
Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-PBK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: To find out the absolute Truth.
Location: Mumbai
Contact:

Re: Controversy - let's live what we preach

Post by shivsena » 20 Mar 2011

nivi wrote:
Baba says "Saab Purush duryodhan dushtyasaasan hai". I am assuming it means all males are aggressive warrior types who like to fight.
Nivi
When shiv is saying that : "sab purush hain duryodhan-dushaasan"....does he mean all males are duryodhan-dushaasan ??...or is he desribing the male-vritti(nature) of the soul ??....there are many male-bodied souls who have no dominant traits (like DL) and there are many female-bodied souls who have very dominant qualities (like many bk sisters and pbk sisters who can never be dominated.)

Also if shiv is criticising the males as being duryodhan-dushaasan, then does it mean that DL and VD are also in that category and does shiv enter duryodhan-dushasan(males) to uplift the females.

User avatar
arjun
PBK
Posts: 11584
Joined: 01 May 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: PBK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: To exchange views with past and present members of BKWSU and its splinter groups.
Location: India

Re: Controversy - let's live what we preach

Post by arjun » 20 Mar 2011

shivsena wrote:When Shiv is saying that : "sab purush hain duryodhan-dushaasan"....does he mean all males are duryodhan-dushaasan ??
Yes.
or is he desribing the male-vritti(nature) of the soul ??there are many male-bodied souls who have no dominant traits (like DL) and there are many female-bodied souls who have very dominant qualities (like many BK Sisters and PBK Sisters who can never be dominated.)
This is also true.
Also if Shiv is criticising the males as being duryodhan-dushaasan, then does it mean that DL and VD are also in that category
Yes.
and does Shiv enter duryodhan-dushasan(males) to uplift the females.

He comes to uplift not just females but all the souls.

ANU
Posts: 309
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Affinity to the BKWSU: Academic
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: Sharing the results of research in the story of the Yagya collected with co-operation with western students.

Re: Controversy - let's live what we preach

Post by ANU » 20 Mar 2011

When Shiv is saying that : "sab purush hain duryodhan-dushaasan"....does he mean all males are duryodhan-dushaasan ??...or is he desribing the male-vritti(nature) of the soul ??
If Shiva speaks at all, he speaks about souls. The consciousness of the soul remains beyond the consciousness of stri-purush. After all how many souls which do not play male roles exist? Only some of those who pass through 1-2 births and play female roles (the conclusion based on AIVV doctrine). So, saying "sab purush ..." would concern the majority of souls.

Can you say that 100% it was Shiv who said so? Or was it said about souls? Or does he says it about men? Or maybe it was Duryodhan who said so about himself and the others.... Duryodhan who will suddenly turn out to be Krishna ;-) - a great helper, supporter and salvator of AIVV doctrine? Whatever doesn't fit in the doctrine, Krishna remains the greatest excuse - everything bad happens because of Krishna :laugh:


Will the real God turn out to use tricky and twisted language to confuse as if there were too less confusion in the world? If God behaves like this and creates such a havoc and confusion like around BKWSU and AIVV, then a question arises in me: What a hell does he come for? To destroy all except for 8? Great God! Great Father! Great Doctrine! There are never ending arguments becasue of ambiguities and controversies as if there were no ways to avoid them. Does God do it on purpose? After all, it's easy to speak less and speak in a correct way, so that ambiguities do not arise. So....? Does God come to creat peace of mind or to cause a greater hell of mind through his ambiguities?

All theories propagated by religious Father were really very simple in their original form. VERY SIMPLE! VERY SHORT!
I cannot say the same about AIVV GOd's doctrine. Thousands hours of classes and more and more contradictions.

User avatar
nivi
Posts: 244
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
Affinity to the BKWSU: PBK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: Share Murli points.

Re: Controversy - let's live what we preach

Post by nivi » 20 Mar 2011

When Shiv is saying that : "sab purush hain duryodhan-dushaasan"....does he mean all males are duryodhan-dushaasan ??...or is he desribing the male-vritti(nature) of the soul ??
My understanding is Shiv Baba looks at our soul when he speaks based on the various part we have played in this drama. In Satyug and Treatayug we take equal amounts of male and female births and we are also soul conscious so there is no question of duryodhan-dushaasan virrti since our visions are pure..But, during Dawapar and Kaliyug we rudra mala i.e. King like souls take more male births because we accumulate more male/king like Sanskaras of leadership and controlling power during this Confluence Age. We recognized Father and listen to his words and follow his teachings of Raja Yoga( how to become king), and most importantly we give importance to knowledge. That's why Shiv Baba says "Gyani tu atma vishes priye hai" (Knowledgeable souls are very dear to me)..At this Confluence Age we are learning direct from Father Gyan Surya so we are also filling our sanskara for the Kalpa. On the other hand, Vijay mala souls from BK side take more female/ queen birth because they follow more dharna as Brahma Baba's Vani are full of dharna points. They put lots of emphasis on Brahma Baba's words and his teachings but they do not know Father. They have not recognized Father in practical nor do they understand the deeper in-depth meaning of Murli points, so in other words they are still following the path of 'Bhakti' (devotion). My understanding is too much Bhakti leads to female sanskara therefore more female births.

Nivi

User avatar
Roy
Posts: 1318
Joined: 17 Feb 2009
Affinity to the BKWSU: questioning BK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: I have been associated with Raj Yoga since 1985, and have only quite recently come to learn of the PBKs and this forum, which i find a great place to get deeper insights into all things Gyani, and hear input from many sides. I find this most healthy, stimulating, and informative, and hope this continues for some time to come.
Location: UK

Re: Controversy - let's live what we preach

Post by Roy » 20 Mar 2011

nivi wrote:My understanding is Shiv Baba looks at our soul when he speaks based on the various part we have played in this drama. In Satyug and Treatayug we take equal amounts of male and female births and we are also soul conscious so there is no question of duryodhan-dushaasan virrti since our visions are pure..But, during Dawapar and Kaliyug we rudra mala i.e. King like souls take more male births because we accumulate more male/king like Sanskaras of leadership and controlling power during this Confluence Age. We recognized Father and listen to his words and follow his teachings of Raja Yoga( how to become king), and most importantly we give importance to knowledge. That's why Shiv Baba says "Gyani tu atma vishes priye hai" (Knowledgeable souls are very dear to me)..At this Confluence Age we are learning direct from Father Gyan Surya so we are also filling our sanskara for the Kalpa. On the other hand, Vijay mala souls from BK side take more female/ queen birth because they follow more dharna as Brahma Baba's Vani are full of dharna points. They put lots of emphasis on Brahma Baba's words and his teachings but they do not know Father. They have not recognized Father in practical nor do they understand the deeper in-depth meaning of Murli points, so in other words they are still following the path of 'Bhakti' (devotion). My understanding is too much Bhakti leads to female sanskara therefore more female births.
Very interesting Nivi Bhen!

Roy

User avatar
arjun
PBK
Posts: 11584
Joined: 01 May 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: PBK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: To exchange views with past and present members of BKWSU and its splinter groups.
Location: India

Re: Controversy - let's live what we preach

Post by arjun » 21 Mar 2011

anu wrote:All theories propagated by religious Father were really very simple in their original form. VERY SIMPLE! VERY SHORT!
I cannot say the same about AIVV GOd's doctrine. Thousands hours of classes and more and more contradictions.
If someone does not have the power or inclination to go into the details of knowledge as being given by ShivBaba He has said that it is enough if they remember three points/dots - one dot is the soul, the second dot is the Supreme Soul and the third dot is drama.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests