1938 Om Mandli Report & BKs latest revision of BKWSU history

To discuss the BK and PBK versions of the factual Yagya history from the beginning.
sita
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Re: 1938 Om Mandli Report & BKs latest revision of BKWSU his

Post by sita » 08 Jan 2012

I am thinking that the entirely portrayal of the early days by the BKWSU is false. Even down to the casting of the Bhaibund as the "Anti-Party". For me, the Anti-Party is within the ranks of the BKWSU and runs the show now. The Bhaibund were acting to their best abilities out of genuine and reasonable concern.
You may mistake here, rushing to the other extreme. Anyway we should avoid jumping into easy and fast conclusions. Your desire to discover the facts is great, but this may misguide you into speculations.

What we know is there has been some change in Brahma Baba and from having gurus he had become a guru himself. There are many evidences about the "purity" matter, it has not been simply for spoilt children. The purity matter has also been introduced little bit later, and the process of purification is indeed through remembrance, but remembrance is there only when there is practical experience and influence. During the golden days with Brahma baba, when people used to have experiences with him, lived with him etc, for them Yaad seemed to be something very natural and easy and just his company has been a guarantee for all attainments. The idea about the Supreme Soul like a point of light has been developed later by Mama.

The court procedure also has contained these purity matters and has turned into manifestation of woman's rights. This same purity matter is bringing problems till present.

Surely Om mandli must have also played its social role, through becoming some local authority in competition to the traditional moral and jurisdiction, but having in mind the revolutionary potential it is believed for this gathering to possess, opposition has always been expected. This gathering has started to rearrange lives of people, so reaction to it will be there. I don't know how it is with other cults, but by putting the BKs in the same list i think you diminish the self importance they attach to themselves. There is the ambition for world sovereignity, they speak of highest on high God etc. so if you say that everything is simply to earn the bread, you diminish their crime, if you think there is such.

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Re: 1938 Om Mandli Report & BKs latest revision of BKWSU his

Post by fluffy bunny » 08 Jan 2012

sita wrote:What we know is there has been some change in Brahma Baba and from having gurus he had become a guru himself. There are many evidences about the "purity" matter ... The purity matter has also been introduced little bit later

The court procedure also has contained these purity matters and has turned into manifestation of woman's rights. This same purity matter is bringing problems till present.
Do you have a copy of the full "court procedure" (by which I mean even going up to government)? Apparently it still exists.

If by "purity" you mean the right not to have sex, it was not such a simple, clear matter. Sex, of course, was not available to the women and the BKs still do not stand for the rights of women to determine their own sexual activity. They are anti-sex. Sex only existed within marriage and marriage is and was about much more than sex.

The BKs portray themselves as "no sex = good" (according to Hindi values and Victorian morals) and the Bhaibund as "want sex = bad" and draw an equation that this was the source of their persecution.

However, if you look at the history, it was about far less than about sex, or even the right of women to divorce. It was about Lekhraj Kirpalani breaking a contract between his family and this daughter's husband's (the leader of the Bhaibund, Muhki Mangharam) and challenging the power of the Bhaibund over individuals, and one man, in essence, having 300 wives. I understand that according to this Bhaibund, divorce was not allowed and so Lekhraj Kirpalani taking his daughter back to the easy life of the Om Mandli must have been the provocation, not just that the Mukhi's son was not going to have sex.

Now many of these women were also in familial contracts, marriages between families (not just individuals), and they were being encouraged to toss it all away, to take the children and move into the luxurious life of the Om Mandli with God Krishna feeding them sweetmeats. Again, it was not just about 'sex', and was about no great moral or physical sacrifice. If a rich man today was to try and to take 300 young women out of a small community, including other men's wives and children, there would still be the same uproar.
Surely Om mandli must have also played its social role, through becoming some local authority in competition to the traditional moral and jurisdiction
If you ask me, and I don't think you will disagree with me on this one, when I look at the BK leaders with international business networks, their sevadharis and taking dowries off young girls ... I just think the BKs just became their own bhaibund. I don't see any great benefit. So ... women have now become allowed to be men, just like the in the West ... what is the big deal? Now the women are not subservient to old men ... they are just subservient to old women.

Do Indian BKs generally understand the nature of Bhaibunds and local Panchayats? I think 100% of Western BK converts have ZERO understanding about them. I thinking that Brahma Kumarism is just the export of a kind of Bhaibund and Panchayat system.
... so if you say that everything is simply to earn the bread, you diminish their crime, if you think there is such.
Interesting point, I understand where you are coming from ... from a PBK point of view. However ... at a lokik level ... yes, I do think a large part of the motivating principle is just the need for food, clothing and shelter.

Whether it was when the money ran out in Mount Abu, or whether it is some young women joining the BKs in the middle of India ... a part of the unconscious decision making process is simply food, clothing and shelter.

Again, I still think the life of Brahma Kumari is probably more attractive to many of the alternatives open to a large proportion of Indian women today. It is not big sacrifice. I don't see the world as being so dominated by sex, SEX, S-E-X as the Brahma Kumaris do!

I would argue that the transformation of the Brahma Kumaris from a small, private commune to an evangelical religion was based on the need to earn money to eat ... "Religion" was all they had to sell. They knew Hindus gave money to religions and so set themselves as gurus in temples, borrowed religious ideas, and started to take money of Hindus.

sita
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Re: 1938 Om Mandli Report & BKs latest revision of BKWSU his

Post by sita » 08 Jan 2012

Indeed people from rich background has been hardly attracted, so it is for helping the poor, because they are the ones who are unhappy and desire change. You say Brahma Baba just seduced women with money and they left their homes, but these has been just a few. At that time and today those who stay at home and follow the knowledge are many times more. What is seducing them, when their financial status does not change due to the association with the Bk or if their financial status goes down or they lose their job. Many also returned to their families. It is rather the mind of people that it is changed.

I don't agree life today is not so much dominated by sex. No-sex today is seen as very strange.

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Re: 1938 Om Mandli Report & BKs latest revision of BKWSU his

Post by fluffy bunny » 09 Jan 2012

sita wrote:What is seducing them, when their financial status does not change due to the association with the BK ...
The BKs leadership has created a myth about themselves and their own importance which is not true. It is based on falsehoods. They have turned it into an income stream to house and feed them which is a "numbers game", or a pyramid scam. Only a few will ever be fed and housed. When the majority get old, there will not be enough funds to feed and house them. Who will look after them?

Look at it from a financial point of view. If it takes 10 working BKs to support one non-working BK, it will require 100 workers to support those 10 when they stop work. Unless the religion keeps expanding, it will at some point collapse. It cannot keep expanding ad finitum so only those who were in at the beginning or middle benefit from it. Those that come in at the end pay into it but get nothing out.

What attracts people now? A lack of hassle in life ... the avoidance of unwanted arranged marriages for younger women ... getting unwanted husbands off their back for old women ... the exotic ego trip of being a world saving guru (mainly for Westerners) ... an escape from a dull and boring life ... a sense of importance and being special from being a member. I think there are still plenty of sub-conscious reasons. Individual BK leaders may live without personal wealth but they enjoy the fruit of a huge collective wealth. We do not know what their private or personal finances are, as many seem to exist on private cash donations given directly to them.

Living a life without worrying about paying tax is not a bad life to live.

I am concerned by the mass conversion of young kumaris and the using of them as unpaid servants, especially when their dowries are demanded from them. If they later leave, are they given back their dowries so they can go and marry? I think young girls in their teens are too young to decide such things, and they are being fooled about what they are getting into.
I don't agree life today is not so much dominated by sex. No-sex today is seen as very strange.
It is more of a personal choice. Most marriages and relationship become sexless in time. Look at the increase in women who do not marry in developed nations. The facts are,
  • a) most people do not have sex most of the time.

    b) the reaction against the Brahma Kumaris was NOT that they were anti-sex, it was because of what was quite rightly seen as the insane and egotistical conduct of Lekhraj Kirpalani.
(It is a little off topic but ... what has made the biggest difference to women in developing nations, with regards to sex, childbearing and marriage is normal education and professional development, not becoming "nuns").

sita
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Re: 1938 Om Mandli Report & BKs latest revision of BKWSU his

Post by sita » 09 Jan 2012

What you say is valid, but again you are looking at the very few at the top. There is variety of people and I am not sure everyone dreams to live a life like this. Normally people work and live their lives in an ordinary way, just incorporate some new ideas and practice this in their lives. I know there are various cases, sometimes money are even requested, but generally one is not bound to give and one is not bound to follow, everyone is free all the time to leave. What it is so wrong about it you see about the normal BKs. What wrong practice do they practice and even if they do, what is your point of interest that you request that they don't practice it, what will be your benefit. In the court also if you cannot prove your point of benefit, if you cannot prove you are side in this case, that is interested, has some interest in this, you cannot deposit a request.

You seem to be concerned for people, but if they get better life, escaping arranged marriage, finding food and shelter, some happiness, experiece, social contacts, hope in life why do you criticise this, even if there are lies. Even if there are lies, they are still many times lessan benefit is many times more than in the outside world we know. Even if there are lies, if there is benefit out of this, this is benefit. You are concerned if the new wold of truth will be established like this. It will be establishe when people change their mentality. And if they live in the old world in the old way,with the old mentality, will they establish the world of truth. Is this what they have to follow? World has degraded and is collapsing, it is a lie the illusion that it will survive and it is a lie the idea to support it. Everyone is attempting for their own salvation, but it is not egoistical, because this knowledge is open and indeed it would be most probably the case that such time will come where one will have to say, you see, we had told you so many times, you did not like to listen. Nomatter the critics, BK are doing their task step by step. They may fail, but they rise again and continue. Everyone fails. It is a lie if someone does not admit it, but through too much critics and expectation and instilling feeling of guilt the process of recovery is obstructed. OK we lied, so what. Everyone lies from time to time, but we will not do this gain, just see in the future, but are you ready to give a credit of trust. Lack of trust is also a problem in todays world, peole don't trust anyone, it is good from one side, becuse everyone lies, but it is very hard to live like this, so if one decides that iwill trust, even if I am lied, finally the outcome will be good, one finds some way.

But there are also cases of rich people coming in Bk and people who don't have social problems, they have career etc. and success in life, family etc. and they are not even serching for something, but they still find something.

You should not equate the having or nonhaving of sex of someone who is doing this due to compultion of the circumstances, but is going after it every day in thoughts words and dreams and one who is making conscous effort to harness this desire and is convinced pure relationship is normal. Nowadays it is normal that sexuality is exposed there are jokes, people flirt at job etc. It is seen as normal to have many relationships, to go only for sex etc. There is great difference in the mentality.

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Re: 1938 Om Mandli Report & BKs latest revision of BKWSU his

Post by fluffy bunny » 09 Jan 2012

sita wrote:What you say is valid, but again you are looking at the very few at the top.
Yes, what I am saying is direct mostly at the few at the top ... and their courtiers.

In the meanwhile, there are just some aspects of the history that I would like to get clear.

The number one is, how and when Shiva Baba was introduced, some date after 1950, and some background into the story of that.

There must have been meetings and discussions held, decisions were made etc.

I would like to know more about them. I find it fascinating. No one seems to know.

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Re: 1938 Om Mandli Report & BKs latest revision of BKWSU his

Post by sita » 09 Jan 2012

There must have been meetings and discussions held, decisions were made etc.
Why do you think this has been the way of taking decision - through discussion. At the time of Brahma baba i believe the democracy model has not been there and everything has been very centralized in the hands of Brahma Baba and Mama like authorities. I think that even today this is not the way of taking decisions. Everything comes from the top.

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Re: 1938 Om Mandli Report & BKs latest revision of BKWSU his

Post by fluffy bunny » 10 Jan 2012

Imagine it ... one day they said, "no Prajapati God Brahma any more ... from today it is God Father Shiva Baba". Do you think there were not discussions? It must have been the most momentous day for them. Did Om Radhe and Lekhraj Kirpalani discuss it in private first? How did it come out?

Then there would have had to have been questions, orders and agreements to hide ... destroy ... "bury" all the old knowledge and start sticking to the new.

We also read that at this time, the end of the period of isolation in Abu there was only a 40 people left, or was it 40 couples (I will have to check back). Perhaps some also left at this time? But when was it? We do not even know which year yet.

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Re: 1938 Om Mandli Report & BKs latest revision of BKWSU his

Post by sita » 10 Jan 2012

You say imagine and i stop listening. It is not difficult to leave old ideas, when there are new.

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Re: 1938 Om Mandli Report & BKs latest revision of BKWSU his

Post by fluffy bunny » 10 Jan 2012

sita wrote:You say imagine and i stop listening.
How insulting ... It is a figure of speak.

I could have said, "Visualize in your mind the actual events" ... because there was an actual event.

There was an actual event ... a day, a moment ... when the penny finally dropped for Lekhraj Kirpalani that he was not God.

Then he had to turn around to the 40 or so people that were left of the Om Mandli and explain to them. What do you think their reaction was?

Then there were a period of looking at the Knowledge, working out what had to be thrown out, and throwing it away.

Now, IF you are a BK or a PBK, you have to admit that these moments were actually amongst the most key moments in the Kalpa ... and we know nothing of them. They are not documented. They are not even discussed. No one except those present seem to have any idea about them Shiva actually asserting himself over Lekhraj Kirpalani!

Now the fact that Lekhraj Kirpalani could believe himself to be God for 12 to 18 years and allow a dwindling community of people to do so also says a lot more about him and his mentality. I am stupid, I know that. But even I can tell I am not god. What state of mind was he in?

Why I think this is important is that the whole BK/PBK community is so fooled by the 1936 "Shivohum, Shivohum ..." story that they cannot see the truth.

Equally, I'd love to know the historical details and see the historical proof for the PBK story and where Sevakram went.

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Re: 1938 Om Mandli Report & BKs latest revision of BKWSU his

Post by sita » 10 Jan 2012

When you imagine i don't need to follow.

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Re: 1938 Om Mandli Report & BKs latest revision of BKWSU his

Post by fluffy bunny » 10 Jan 2012

My love, I was not asking you to imagine. It is how English is spoken. Before one asks a question, one sets the specific circumstances about which one is questioning. I was asking you a question.

OK ... you 'describe' to me the situation then?

There must have been one moment where someone said, Shiva (Shivsena is saying it was Om Radhe, I don't know because the BKWSU story is littered with falsehoods).

Tell me exactly what happened the very day the Lekhraj Kirpalani told the members of the Prajapati Brahma Kumaris that, actually, it was Shiva that was speaking through him from now on, and then how they decided to change his name from Prajapati to Prajapita, change the knowledge and throw away the old Divine Messages and posters?

Are you suggesting it happened in 1947? The BKs used to say they buried a load of all papers in Karachi before them left for Abu, which they dated to 1951, but then there is a missing period before Chander starts writing in the late 50s.

What are the earliest dated Murlis or divine messages available?

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Re: 1938 Om Mandli Report & BKs latest revision of BKWSU his

Post by sita » 10 Jan 2012

I don't know which are the earliest written Murlis available. There are references of some Seniors in classes that in Karachi there used to be a mother who used to give classes, maybe she used to be there still from Hyderabad. Dada Lekhraj used to write them down. There are also references about this in the Murlis. I don't know time periods. When Brahma Baba used to deliver Murlis Mama also used to deliver classes. I don't know time periods, but i think that it is a well known fact that Mama had developed the idea about the point of light. It surprises me you are not aware.

i don't remember well where did i came along this story, it may well be of Dadi Nirmal Shanta, that initially they did not have the idea of a separate entity like the Supreme Soul entering, it was as if Brahma Baba was himself this, then one day she was with Mama and Mama had said that "Do you understand who is teaching" and she had given her a special drishti and she had understood it is some other soul entering, but you may even call it mesmerizing.

I think these has been times of intense study and changes, when the mother was gone i don't know, but this must have also brought some change. At that time there used not be some commitee for taking decisions. Mama and baba used to be like teachers, everyone used to be like students. i don't think anyone else apart from them used to deliver classes. When there used to be some new information, naturally the old must have been automatically forgotten and put away by everyone. It is not forgotten even today and everyone remembers these and this is not hidden or some secret, but people just hold to the so called latest achievments. At that time they were having the idea and it was accepted that knowledge is undergoing refining and changing.

At the same time the available Murlis seem to have some consinderal internal similarity, there is no great change between them, they seem to be like some solid block. Some people also take that the Avyakt "Murlis" are more developed or refined or powerful due to the fact that chronologically they come later.

I also don't know much regarding the Piu matter.

Another period we know about is the period of visions where om used to be chanted (maybe it is the same time when the Gita verses used to be chanted) and people going into trance, having visions of paradise, dancing with krisha etc. i believe it has been in Hiderabad, but not sure.

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Re: 1938 Om Mandli Report & BKs latest revision of BKWSU his

Post by fluffy bunny » 11 Jan 2012

sita wrote:i think that it is a well known fact that Mama had developed the idea about the point of light. It surprises me you are not aware.
No, I had never heard it before a few days ago when I read it here. It must be something that is taught in Advance Knowledge but I never heard it in the BKWSU.

Have you read any of the publication printed in the 1930s and 40s? Right up until the late 1940s, there was no mention of Shiva and they only wrote of the infinite divine light, as in what they would not call the Brahm element. They (human beings) and Prajapati God Brahma were all said to be superior to any god.

There is no mention in the Brahma Kumaris version of the history that the reason they "buried" all the old documents was because they wanted to reinvent the religion. I think it was just inferred that they left them behind when they left to Mount Abu.

It is still a big jump from Om Radhe conceiving of a point of light, to conceiving that it sentient and it speaking and giving itself a name.

Of course, perhaps it did not give itself a name ... perhaps they just chose one for it?

Given that it is their god, I think it is quite a critical point to know!

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Re: 1938 Om Mandli Report & BKs latest revision of BKWSU his

Post by sita » 11 Jan 2012

I have read the publications, but i think you speculate here.
the reason they "buried" all the old documents was because they wanted to reinvent the religion.

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