Unraveling the history of Lekhraj Kripalani's partner

To discuss the BK and PBK versions of the factual Yagya history from the beginning.
sita
Posts: 1300
Joined: 18 May 2011
Affinity to the BKWSU: PBK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: I would like to take part in healthy discussion on topics of knowledge, sharing with fellow souls, for common benefit.

Re: Unraveling the history of Lekhraj Kripalani's partner

Post by sita » 09 May 2012

I did not realize this aspect of the history been revised by PBKs. What is then the story of Lekhraj Kirpalani's partner as per PBKs?
It is more or less as you had stated. It is based on the versions in the Murli that there used to be such souls who used to teach Mama and Baba, ShivBaba entered them etc. and also that in the beginning Brahma Baba used to be confused about the visions, but later, he got clarifications that he will become Krishna, instrurumental to lay the foundation of the new world etc. It is logical to conclude that he might have received such clarification through the medium of these souls about whom there is mention in the Murlis as teachers. We don't know for sure who they might have been, that it has been the partner is only an assumption, but we are looking for those souls. Who were they, we hope it will be revealed with time. I mean to say we are not specifically after the partner, if he is the man, we are after him, if not, we are after the man who was the man.

T.K
Posts: 64
Joined: 21 Apr 2012
Affinity to the BKWSU: Academic
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: Understand the historical facts of the organization.

Re: Unraveling the history of Lekhraj Kripalani's partner

Post by T.K » 09 May 2012

sita wrote: We don't know for sure who they might have been, that it has been the partner is only an assumption, but we are looking for those souls. Who were they, we hope it will be revealed with time. I mean to say we are not specifically after the partner, if he is the man, we are after him, if not, we are after the man who was the man.
And that is a noble goal to pursue.
Perhaps the above analysis helps shed some light on one prospect, the partner. And of course, additionally, it may or may not have implications for PBK.

User avatar
fluffy bunny
ex-BKWSU
Posts: 5365
Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: ex-BK. Interested in historical revisionism, failed predictions and abuse within the BK movement.

Re: Unraveling the history of Lekhraj Kripalani's partner

Post by fluffy bunny » 09 May 2012

Do you have access to any more original documents, original nurlis or interviewed any of the Seniors and families, T.K.?

A self-published book and a booklet is not enough to base a historical theory on which, if you are an academic, you will know.
sita wrote:It is more or less as you had stated. It is based on the versions in the Murli that there used to be such souls who used to teach Mama and Baba, ShivBaba entered them etc. and also that in the beginning Brahma Baba used to be confused about the visions, but later, he got clarifications ...
I don't mean to say this to upset anyone ... but doesn't it suggest that the Sakar Murlis are sort of confused and rambling?

Why would not they be clear, simple, easy to understand and well referenced, e.g. mention who was who my name? I don't understand Hindu and so could never understand the tapes of him speaking but I am trying to see in my mind what the setting must have been like. Was he "speaking in a code only the chosen can understand, or was he not just in a bad state of mind and we after trying to make sense of it ... like listen to an old person with Alzheimers Disease.

As to the BK leadership deliberately obfuscating the facts ... well, I have no trouble believing that. Again, how hard would it be to just tell the truth instead of creating lies and confusing to hide behind? Why would they not want create a simple, well referenced documentation rather than leaving it all to interpretation.

They might have stolen the butter of the yugya but they are no Krishnnas.

Why after years of Virendra Dev Dixit, brahmakumaris.info, here and elsewhere digging up old skeletons in public are the Brahma Kumaris still selling a false history and religion?

User avatar
fluffy bunny
ex-BKWSU
Posts: 5365
Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: ex-BK. Interested in historical revisionism, failed predictions and abuse within the BK movement.

Re: Unraveling the history of Lekhraj Kripalani's partner

Post by fluffy bunny » 09 May 2012

T.K wrote:PariXit,
I am not sure I quite follow your post.
PariXit,

Please get the message. You are not writing in English. It is not possible to understand. You are throwing together a lot of English language words but the result is not English.

Keep it simple or go back to school please.

T.K
Posts: 64
Joined: 21 Apr 2012
Affinity to the BKWSU: Academic
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: Understand the historical facts of the organization.

Re: Unraveling the history of Lekhraj Kripalani's partner

Post by T.K » 10 May 2012

fluffy bunny wrote:Do you have access to any more original documents, original nurlis or interviewed any of the Seniors and families, T.K.?
I don't have any more substantive information to add beyond what is already on this site, the brahmakumaris.info site and youtube (which has interviews of some of the Om Mandli members).

BTW, while it may not exculpate the BKs, understanding the Indian culture and psyche may help understand their thinking and decisions, especially their response to "uncomfortable" questions and issues raised by their own and outsiders.

User avatar
arjun
PBK
Posts: 11584
Joined: 01 May 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: PBK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: To exchange views with past and present members of BKWSU and its splinter groups.
Location: India

Re: Unraveling the history of Lekhraj Kripalani's partner

Post by arjun » 10 May 2012

fluffybunny wrote:Does Veerendra Dev Dixit give a precise date when Shiva was meant to have popped into and what exactly he said?
PBKs have been taught through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit that Shiv started entering in Brahma Baba's partner from the time Brahma Baba got clarifications for his visions from the partner at Calcutta (after his unsuccessful attempts at solving the mystery of visions at Varanasi).
It is also believed (as T.K has pointed out) that these people moved to Sindh, Pakistan where the satsangs (spiritual gatherings) continued. But the setting was more of a path of Bhakti (with visions being caused to everyone and the uttering of the sound of Om) and even the initial knowledge was based on scriptures and visions. So, I don't think either Dada Lekhraj or his partner would have realized that it was Shiv Himself who was entering in the partner and giving knowledge. But they gave a lot of importance to the versions narrated through the partner known as Piu ki Vani. Perhaps around 1947 (after the departure of the partner and the other two mothers) when knowledge began to be narrated indirectly (written form) / directly (orally) through Dada Lekhraj that they must have realized about the entry of Shiv in him. Since the partner or the mothers were no longer in the Yagya, they were mentioned in the Murlis only through indirect references.
Personally, I am allowing the PBKs the benefit of doubt in the hope that sincere PBK followers might resolve all this. As far as I can see, and I have not done the Advanced Knowledge course nor studied Veerendra Dev Dixit's class in depth, the event of Shiva speaking through another spirit medium might just boil down to a single occasion or utterance.
Some PBKs are indeed trying to resolve these issues and also keeping Baba Virendra Dev Dixit informed about it. So, may be when all the puzzles are solved that they may come up with a tangible answer.

sita
Posts: 1300
Joined: 18 May 2011
Affinity to the BKWSU: PBK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: I would like to take part in healthy discussion on topics of knowledge, sharing with fellow souls, for common benefit.

Re: Unraveling the history of Lekhraj Kripalani's partner

Post by sita » 10 May 2012

like listen to an old person with Alzheimers Disease.
Or like a baby. Since Brahma Baba did not himself recognize the importance of the people from the beginning of the Yagya, hence there is not much reference about them.

User avatar
fluffy bunny
ex-BKWSU
Posts: 5365
Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: ex-BK. Interested in historical revisionism, failed predictions and abuse within the BK movement.

Re: Unraveling the history of Lekhraj Kripalani's partner

Post by fluffy bunny » 10 May 2012

I appreciate "baby" is the polite word used by the PBKs ... but he was closer in age to being senile. It's still mental illness in an adult, (e.g infantilism).

What sort of person is able to maintain the belief they are god for 14 plus years ... and, if the partner was around in 1936-8 and had God Shiva in him, why did not they correct him?

Babies are massively self-centered, as far as they think, the world revolves around them.
T.K wrote:BTW, while it may not exculpate the BKs, understanding the Indian culture and psyche may help understand their thinking and decisions, especially their response to "uncomfortable" questions and issues raised by their own and outsiders.
Why blame India for 'Brahma Kumari culture' ... on one hand a bunch of Seniors who have hidden, lied and covered up, and are skilled at fobbing people off; and, on the other, a load of impotent, indoctrinated followers who are either incapable or too afraid to ask the right question. Both repeating and conforming to a faked version of history.

Are you saying there are no honest, straight forward people in India?

Between them they have managed to fool or seduce most of the academics that have looked at them with, possibly, the except of Dr John Walliss who managed to get to the point of the BKs anger and irritation at the PBKs ... the BKs started threatening him and putting up blocks when he started to go and investigate the PBKs. Sounds irrational to me.

What you mean by "their thinking" are their massive egos which everyone has to tiptoe around or worship for fear of being discommunicated. Their "discomfort" is the same as any liar feelings when their lies are being pressed upon.

Surely spiritual people so close to the zenith of their spirituality (as the world is surely going to end within the next year or two and they are ready to go to the Golden Age), should be above petty ego ... able and committed to be honest?

Are the BKs helping you at all in this? Usually they try and use people as tools to repeat their PR version.

T.K
Posts: 64
Joined: 21 Apr 2012
Affinity to the BKWSU: Academic
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: Understand the historical facts of the organization.

Re: Unraveling the history of Lekhraj Kripalani's partner

Post by T.K » 10 May 2012

fluffy bunny wrote: Are you saying there are no honest, straight forward people in India?
I don't know. I suppose one could find some who are.
fluffy bunny wrote: Are the BKs helping you at all in this? Usually they try and use people as tools to repeat their PR version.
No, I have not been put up by the BKs, or anyone else, to be here.

I detect much angst and bewilderment on this forum about why the BK hierarchy behaves the way it does. There are, of course, multiple factors, and IMO the culture is one of the important components. Understanding the culture may assuage some of the anguish and explain some of the actions. This does not mean I am "blaming India", the culture is what it is.

User avatar
fluffy bunny
ex-BKWSU
Posts: 5365
Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: ex-BK. Interested in historical revisionism, failed predictions and abuse within the BK movement.

Re: Unraveling the history of Lekhraj Kripalani's partner

Post by fluffy bunny » 10 May 2012

fluffy bunny wrote:Are the BKs helping you at all in this? Usually they try and use people as tools to repeat their PR version.
T.K wrote:No, I have not been put up by the BKs, or anyone else, to be here.
No, I just meant the question simply ... are the BKs willing to help you at all in this?

All academics to date have been duped by them, and repeated the PR version. The inner circle must know more than they are saying.

User avatar
arjun
PBK
Posts: 11584
Joined: 01 May 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: PBK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: To exchange views with past and present members of BKWSU and its splinter groups.
Location: India

Re: Unraveling the history of Lekhraj Kripalani's partner

Post by arjun » 10 May 2012

sita wrote:Or like a baby. Since Brahma Baba did not himself recognize the importance of the people from the beginning of the Yagya, hence there is not much reference about them.
"Swayam Bhagwaan kahtey hain jab Bhakti poori ho tab mai aaun. Aadhakalpa Bhaktimarg chaltaa hai, din aur raat. Shuru may bhi pehley-pehley jab praveshataa hui (Maa ke roop may praveshata hoti thi) toh deevaaron par aisey-aisey chakra nikaaltey rahtey thay, jaisey chotey bachhey hotey hain. Samajh may kuch nahee aata tha. Ham tum sab babies thay, fir dheerey-dheerey buddhi may aata gayaa. Abhi tum padhkar hoshiyaar huay ho toh bilkul sahaj reeti samajha saktey ho. Aisey nahee samajhnaa yah bahut puraaney bachhey hain, isliye hamsey hoshiyaar hain. Ham toh itnaa padh nahee sakengey. Baba kahtey hain – pichaadi may aaney vaaley bahut aagey ja saktey hain. Deri say aaney vaaley aur hee din-raat Yoga may mast ho lag padengey." (BKs dwara prakaashit revised Sakar Murli taareekh 23.05.07, pg 3)

“God Himself says – I come when Bhakti completes. For half a Kalpa/cycle the path of devotion (i.e. Bhaktimarg) goes on, day and night. Even in the beginning, initially when there was entry (In the beginning entry used to take place in the form of mother), then he used to draw the pictures of World Cycle like this, just as there are small children. (He) Did not understand anything. You and I were all babies; then gradually it went on entering the intellect. Now you have studied and become intelligent. So, you can explain very easily. Do not think that - "These are very old children, that is why they are more intelligent than us. We will not be able to study to that extent." Baba says – Those who come late can gallop ahead (of others). Those who come late would become even more intoxicated in Yoga day and night.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 23.05.07, pg 3 published by BKs)

User avatar
arjun
PBK
Posts: 11584
Joined: 01 May 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: PBK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: To exchange views with past and present members of BKWSU and its splinter groups.
Location: India

Re: Unraveling the history of Lekhraj Kripalani's partner

Post by arjun » 10 May 2012

Quoted from the PBK Section of this forum:

"Toh Baap samjhaatey hain ki inka toh apnaa naam hai, mera sharir ka koi naam nahee hai, na mai punarjanm may aata hoon. Mai inmay pravesh kartaa hoon, inko bhi maaloom nahee padta hai. Koi tithi taareekh nahee.....Mai aata hoon paavan duniya arthaat din banaaney. Yah bhi nahee jaantey ki Baba nay kab pravesh kiya. Haan, vinaash saakshaatkaar kiya. Bahut dhyaan may jaatey thay, vah koi tithi taareekh vela nahee nikaal saktey. Krishna ko bhi poojtey hain, unka raatri ko janma dikhaatey hain. Kis samay, kitney minute aadi saara nikaaltey hain. Baap kahtey hain - mai toh hoon hee niraakaar. Jaisey aur manushya janma letey hain, vaisey mera janma thodey hee hota hai. Mera toh divya aloukik janma hai. Mai inmay pravesh karta hoon fir chalaa jaata hoon. Bail par saara din savaari thodey hee kartey hain. Mujhey jis samay bachhey Yaad kartey hain, mai haazir hoon." (BKs dwara prakaashit revised Sakar Murli taareekh 13.06.06, pg 3)

“So the Father explains that he (i.e. Brahma) has his own name, I do not have a name based on the body, neither do I take rebirth. I enter into him; even he does not come to know of it. There is no date (of entry of Shiv into Brahma)....I come to create a pure world, i.e. day. Even he does not know when Baba entered (into him). Yes, he had visions of destruction. He used to go into trance a lot; for that no date or time can be calculated. Krishna is also worshipped; he is shown to have taken birth at night. At what time, at which minute, etc. everything is calculated. Father says - I am incorporeal. I do not take birth just as other human beings take birth. My birth is divine, alokik. I enter into him and then depart. Does anyone ride on the bull throughout the day? Whenever children remember me, I am present.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 13.06.06, pg.3 published by BKs)

- When Baba Himself is telling that “I enter into him; even he does not come to know of it. There is no date (of entry of Shiv into Brahma)”, then how can the BKs say with a guarantee that Shiv entered into Dada Lekhraj when he suddenly got up from one of the spiritual gatherings of his lokik guru and had divine visions of Vishnu in his room?
- Baba is telling that we cannot calculate the date or time of His entry into the corporeal medium. Date or time of birth can be calculated only for human beings, like the soul of Krishna (Dada Lekhraj Brahma). But in case of Gulzar Dadi, the date and time of entry of BapDada is calculated many months in advance. So, who is entering into her and whose entry are they fixing many months in advance - is it the Supreme Father Shiv or the soul of Krishna?

User avatar
arjun
PBK
Posts: 11584
Joined: 01 May 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: PBK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: To exchange views with past and present members of BKWSU and its splinter groups.
Location: India

Re: Unraveling the history of Lekhraj Kripalani's partner

Post by arjun » 10 May 2012

Quoted from the PBK Section of this forum:

“Tum bachhey yah thodey hee kah sakengey – Baba nay kab inmay pravesh kiya. Jab sakshaatkaar hua tab aaya va kab? Saakshaatkaar toh Bhakti marg may bhi aisey hee hotey hain. Pataa nahee padta ki Baba kis samay aaya. Krishna kay aaney kee ghadee dikhaatey hain. ShivBaba kee ghadi aadi kuch hoti nahee. Baba toh maalik hai. Kab aatey hain, pataa nahee padta hai. Yahaan Murli say samajh jaatey hain.” (BKs dwara prakaashit revised Sakar Murli dinaank 27.03.07, pg.2)

• “You children would not be able to say – when Baba entered into him. Did He come when he had divine vision or when? Similar divine visions occur in the path of worship also. It cannot be known at what time Baba came. The time of the arrival of Krishna is depicted. There is no time, etc. for the arrival of ShivBaba. Baba is a Master. It cannot be known - when He comes. Here, it is guessed through Murli.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 27.03.07, pg.2 published by BKs)
- Baba is telling that one cannot know about the time of entry of Shiv into Brahma Baba and it can’t even be said that Shiv entered into him when he had divine visions. So, how can we say that when Dada Lekhraj had divine visions in his room in 1936/37, the incorporeal Shiv had entered into him on that day and at that time. So then is it proper for us aloukik Brahmins to celebrate the Shivjayanti of the path of knowledge on a day decided by the astrologers of the path of worship for the Shivratri of Bhaktimarg?
- BKs say that ShivBaba teaches face to face by coming into Gulzar Dadiji. But there the programme of Avyakt BapDada’s arrival (day and time) is fixed many months earlier. But Baba is telling that “It cannot be known - when He comes” Does it not prove that it is not ShivBaba, but only Brahma Baba, i.e. the soul of Krishna which comes into Gulzar Dadiji?

T.K
Posts: 64
Joined: 21 Apr 2012
Affinity to the BKWSU: Academic
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: Understand the historical facts of the organization.

Re: Unraveling the history of Lekhraj Kripalani's partner

Post by T.K » 10 May 2012

arjun wrote:Does it not prove that it is not ShivBaba, but only Brahma Baba, i.e. the soul of Krishna which comes into Gulzar Dadiji?
Not really!
Don't the BKs claim it is the "combined form" of Shiva Baba+BB that enters Dadi Gulzar? Shiva Baba may not need an invitation, but if BB does, then would that explain the scheduled appointments?
For that matter, what if it is a totally different, probably even a non-BK, soul altogether?
arjun wrote:“ Yahaan Murli say samajh jaatey hain.” (BKs dwara prakaashit revised Sakar Murli dinaank 27.03.07, pg.2)

• “" Here, it is guessed through Murli.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 27.03.07, pg.2 published by BKs)
I disagree with the above translation.
IMO, the Hindi above translates to, "Here it is understood from the Murli", and not "guessed". IMHO there is a difference in the semantics of the two words.

T.K
Posts: 64
Joined: 21 Apr 2012
Affinity to the BKWSU: Academic
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: Understand the historical facts of the organization.

Re: Unraveling the history of Lekhraj Kripalani's partner

Post by T.K » 10 May 2012

fluffy bunny wrote: No, I just meant the question simply ... are the BKs willing to help you at all in this?
I have no help from BKs.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests