Presence of ShivBaba

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by arjun » 15 Aug 2012

Murlis say that Brahma is Moon of knowledge
“जब कलियुग का अन्त आये तब भक्ति का भी अन्त आये, तब ही भगवान आकर मिले क्योंकि वही भक्ति का फल देने वाला है। उनको ज्ञान सूर्य कहा जाता है। ज्ञान चन्द्रमा, ज्ञान सूर्य और ज्ञान लकी सितारे। अच्छा ज्ञान सूर्य तो है बाप। फिर माता चाहिए ज्ञान चन्द्रमा। तो जिस तन में प्रवेश किया है वह हो गई ज्ञान चन्द्रमा माता और बाकी सब हैं बच्चे लकी सितारे। इस हिसाब से जगदम्बा भी लकी स्टार हो गई क्योंकि बच्चे ठहरे ना। स्टार्स में कोई सबमें तीखा भी होता है। वैसे यहाँ भी नम्बरवार हैं। वह हैं स्थूल आकाश के सूर्य चाँद और सितारे और यह है ज्ञान की बात। जैसे वह पानी की नदियां और यह है ज्ञान की नदियां, जो ज्ञान सागर से निकली हैं।“ (ब्रह्माकुमारियों द्वारा प्रकाशित रिवाइज़्ड साकार मुरली दिनांक ११.०१.०८, पृ.२)

“When the Iron Age ends, then Bhakti would also end; only then will God come and meet because He alone gives the fruits of Bhakti. He is called the Sun of Knowledge. The Moon of knowledge, the Sun of Knowledge and the lucky stars of knowledge. OK, the Father is the Sun of Knowledge. Then the mother should be the Moon of knowledge. So, the body in which He has entered is the Moon of knowledge mother and the rest of the children are lucky stars. In this way, Jagdamba is also a lucky star because she is also a child, isn’t she? Even among the stars one shines the most. Similarly, even here they are numberwise. Those are the Sun, the Moon and the stars of the sky and here it is a matter of knowledge. Just as they are the rivers of water and these are the rivers of knowledge, which have emerged from the ocean of knowledge.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 11.01.08, pg 2 published by BKs in Hindi, narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba; translated by a PBK; the words within brackets in the English version have been added by the translator to clarify the meaning)
Murli says- Prajapita ka alag photo honaa chahiye = there should be separate photo of Prajapita. [sorry- i do not have date now]
Even if it exists it will apply to Prajapita, but as far as Brahma is concerned there are several Murlis which say that one should not keep Brahma's photos.

“बाप कहते हैं भारतवासियों को अपने धर्म का पता नहीं – कब और किसने स्थापन किया? कोई किस देवी को याद करते, कोई कृष्ण को, कोई गुरू को याद करते। गुरू का फोटो भी लगा देते हैं। तुम्हारा चित्र से काम नहीं। जिसका कोई चित्र नहीं है, वह है विचित्र। आत्मा विचित्र है। जैसे बाप विचित्र है वैसे बच्चे भी विचित्र हैं। आत्मा ही सुनती है। बाबा ने यह तन लोन लिया है। कहते हैं प्रकृति के आधार बिगर मैं ज्ञान कैसे दूं? राजयोग कैसे सिखलाऊं?“(ब्रह्माकुमारियों द्वारा प्रकाशित रिवाइज़्ड साकार मुरली दिनांक २६.०८.०८, पृ. ३)

“The Father says – The Indians do not know about their religion – when and who established it? Some people remember some devi (female deity), some remember Krishna, some remember some guru. They also display the photo of the guru. You don’t have any connection with pictures. The one who does not have any picture is called vichitra. A soul is vichitra. Just as the Father is vichitra, children are vichitra too. The soul itself listens. Baba has taken this body on loan. He says – How can I give knowledge without the support of prakriti (nature/body)? How can I teach rajyog?”(Revised Sakar Murli dated 26.08.08, pg 3 published by BKs in Hindi, narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba; translated by a PBK; the words within brackets in the English version have been added by the translator to clarify the meaning)

"Baap kahtey hain tumko koi bhi chitra rakhney kee darkaar nahee. Kyaa tum ShivBaba ko nahee jaantey jo chitra rakhtey ho? Kya chitra rakhney say Yaad kar saktey ho? Baba jeeta hai fir bachchey chitra kyon rakhengey? Baap tumko gyaan dey raha hai fir chitra kya karengey? Boodhey hain Yaad bhool jaati hai isliye chitra diya jaataa hai. Baaki aur koi bhi dehdhaari ko Yaad kartey rahengey toh anth samay vahee Yaad aayega. Kuch na kuch rag hai toh vah tumhaarey peechey padega. Fir bhaley kitney bhi ShivBaba ke chitra rakho. Agar rag aur taraf hogi toh vah Yaad jaroor aayega. Isliye Baap kahtey hain bachchey poora nashtomoha ho jaao." (BKs dwara prakaashit revised Sakar Murli taareekh 26.12.07, pg 3&4)

The Father says – there is no need for you to keep any picture. Don’t you know ShivBaba that you keep (His) pictures? Can you remember (Him) by keeping (His) pictures? When Baba is alive, then why will children keep pictures? The Father is giving you knowledge, then what will you do with pictures? There are aged ones; they forget to remember (Baba), this is why picture is given. But if you keep remembering any other bodily being, then in the end his thoughts will only come to your mind. If there is attachment to some extent or the other, then he will chase you. Then you may keep any number of pictures of ShivBaba. If you have attachment for someone else, then he will certainly come to your mind. This is why the Father says – Children, become completely victorious over attachment.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 26.12.07, pg 3&4 published by BKs)
But- that implies god gives knowledge thorugh Brahma . but- god himself reads something and explains.....does not digest to me. OK, good.
God does not read. Nor does the soul of Ram read. It is the soul of Dada Lekhraj (Moon of knowledge depicted on Shankar's forehead) who reads the Murlis (scriptures) and Shiv clarifies.
And- much more questions arise. It is gyaan gagaayein (rivers of knowledge) that should flow and not the ocean (god). But in AIVV, it is the ocean(God) that moves/travels maximum.
It is to save Yagya money that ShivBaba travels himself. Instead of thousands of children coming from different corners of the country and abroad to Madhuban, if one ShivBaba travels to their doorstep, will it not save precious Yagya money?

It has been said in an Avyakt Vani - If you set up mini-Madhubans BapDada will come there. But Avyakt BapDada through Gulzar Dadi has not travelled anywhere except Abu or Abu Road even after many years of this declaration.

There is a song in the path of Bhakti - तेरे द्वार खड़ा भगवान - (God is standing at your door step) and even in the Murlis Baba says that you have found God sitting at home.

In AIVV Baba thinks so much about saving money whereas in BKWSU, lakhs and even crores of rupees are wasted on travelling by AC trains or aeroplanes. I remember that when Prakashmani Dadi died thousands of BKs wasted money travelling from all over the world to Mount Abu. Is it in accordance with Shrimat when Baba says every paisa of Yagya money is precious? I have just given one example (tip of the iceberg).
Debate will never end. You are here in the intention of doing service and even myself.

both of us agree that truth will win and also respect truth from inner side. so- Good and fine.
Hope we end with good mood. Thank you.
Thank you, too. :D

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by arjun » 15 Aug 2012

It is immaterial where you imagine him. you can feel ShivBaba is in Paramdham and even self as here, or both are there, or both are here, whatever it is , it is OK.
"Baba aatmaon say baat kartey hain. Aatma na kah jeevatma kahengey kyonki jab aatma akeli hai toh bol nahee saktee. Sharir bigar aatma, aatma say baat nahee kartee. Paramdham may kya Parmatma aatma say baat karengey? Bhal kah detey Christ ko Parmatma nay bheja parantu vahaan Parmatma boltaa nahee hai, vahaan ishara bhi nahee hota. Drama anusaar aatma aapey hee part bajaaney neechey aa jaati hai. Aatma may part bhara hua hai. Toh aatma neechey aakar sharir dhaaran kar part bajaati hai." (BKs dwara prakaashit revised Sakar Murli taareekh 08.10.07, pg 1&2)
“Baba speaks to the souls. Instead of aatma (soul) it will be called a jeevatma (a living soul, i.e. soul+body) because when a soul is single (i.e. without body) it cannot speak. Without a body, a soul does not speak to (another) soul. Will the Supreme Soul talk to a soul in the Supreme Abode? Although it is said that Christ was sent (to Earth) by the Supreme Soul, but there the Supreme Soul does not speak. There is not even gesture there. According to the drama a soul comes down on its own to play its part. The part (i.e. role) is recorded in the soul. So the soul comes down and plays its part by assuming a body.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 08.10.07, pg 1&2 published by BKs)
You may also practice like this. i am not at all present in this body. i am at Paramdham. This body is ShivBaba's. So- feel how would ShivBaba sit in this and eat, if he has such a role in drama. He will not even take vaasanaa- right?

So- assume that ShivBaba is in your body and is taking care of the body.
Do you want to become a Hiranyakashyap, too? :D In which Murli did Baba ask us to imagine like this? In this way will He not become omnipresent?
While listeing to Murli, feel that you are in Paramdham sitting and hearing to Baba- and it is a point teaching to point.
The above Murli point proves this wrong.
Or emerge Baba- point in front of you- say - one feet distance from your forehead and is giving you The Knowledge
The above Murli point proves this wrong. ShivBaba gives knowledge only by entering in a human body.

“तुमको कहते हैं कहाँ है भगवान, दिखाओ। अरे, आत्मा बिन्दी है, उनको देखेंगे क्या। यह तो जानते हो आत्मा का साक्षात्कार इन आँखों से होता नहीं। तुम कहते हो भगवान पढाते हैं तो जरूर कोई शरीरधारी होगा। निराकार कैसे पढ़ायेंगे। मनुष्यों को तो कुछ भी पता नहीं है। जैसे तुम आत्मा हो, शरीर द्वारा पार्ट बजाते हो। आत्मा ही पार्ट बजाती है। आत्मा ही बोलती है, शरीर द्वारा। तो आत्मा वाच। परन्तु आत्मा वाच शोभता नहीं। आत्मा तो वानप्रस्थ, वाणी से परे है, वाच तो शरीर से ही करेगी। वाणी से परे सिर्फ आत्मा ही रह जाती है। वाणी में आना है तो शरीर जरूर चाहिए।“(ब्रह्माकुमारियों द्वारा प्रकाशित रिवाइज़्ड साकार मुरली दिनांक १8.०६.०९, पृ. २)

“People ask you – Show us where is God? Arey, a soul is a point; how can you see it? You know that the soul cannot be seen through these eyes. You say that God teaches us; so certainly there must be a bodily being. How can the incorporeal teach? People do not know anything. Just as you are souls, and play a part through the body; it is the soul which plays the part. It is the soul which speaks through the body. So, the soul speaks (aatma vaach). But it does not look appropriate if you say that the soul speaks. A soul is vaanprasth, beyond speech (Vani); it will speak only through the body. Only the soul remains beyond speech. If it has to speak, a body is definitely required.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 18.06.09, pg 2 published by BKs in Hindi, narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba; translated by a PBK; the words within brackets in the English version have been added by the translator to clarify the meaning)
Or you may feel two points- one yourself and one Baba- both are outside your body, or both inside your body or however you feel.
Again a statement which proves that you consider yourself to be a medium of God. In no Murli has Baba said that you should imagine Shiv sitting in your body.

“बाबा ने समझाया है – मुझे याद करो, मेरी श्रीमत पर चलो। इसमें प्रेरणा आदि की कोई बात नहीं। अगर प्रेरणा से काम हो तो फिर बाप के आने की दरकार ही नहीं। शिवबाबा तो यहाँ है। तो उनको प्रेरणा की क्या दरकार है। यह तो बाप की मत पर चलना होता है। प्रेरणा की बात नहीं। कोई-कोई सन्देशियां सन्देश ले आती हैं, उसमें भी बहुत मिक्स हो जाता है। सन्देशी तो सब एक जैसी हैं नहीं। माया का बहुत इन्टरफियर होता है। दूसरी सन्देशी से वेरीफाय कराना होता है। कई तो कह देते हैं हमारे में बाबा आते हैं, मम्मा आती है फिर अपना अलग सेन्टर खोल बैठते हैं। माया की प्रवेशता हो जाती है। यह बड़ी समझने की बात है।“(ब्रह्माकुमारियों द्वारा प्रकाशित रिवाइज़्ड साकार मुरली दिनांक १९.११.०८, पृ. २)

“Baba has explained – Remember me, follow my Shrimat. There is no issue of inspiration in this. If the task could be performed through inspiration, then there is no need for the Father to come at all. ShivBaba is here. So, why does He need inspiration? It is about following the opinion of the Father. It is not about inspiration. Some messengers bring messages; (but) there is a lot of mixture in it as well. All the messengers are not alike. Maya interferes a lot. One should verify from another messenger. Many say that Baba comes in me, Mama comes in me; and then they open their separate centers. Maya enters in them. These are issues to be understood.”(Revised Sakar Murli dated 19.11.08, pg 2 published by BKs in Hindi, narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba; translated by a PBK; the words within brackets in the English version have been added by the translator to clarify the meaning)

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by Rudraakash » 15 Aug 2012

Rudraakash wrote:Mu 3-7-99
UNKA WAH RATH TO BADA HAI. AANE SE HE GYAAN SUNANA SHURU KAR DIYA. YAH TO KUCH NHE JANTE THE.

Mu 10-5-68
Sharir chhutega tab jab BAAP KA RATH aakar lenge.

Above both points are clearly talking about TWO PERSONALITY, After Diminishing the one Father will take another costume,
Mb bhatt wrote:who said No? That is why BKs believe after DL, Dadi Gulzar is the Chariot.
Its your manmat but The above mu. Points can never apply for Dadi Gulzar, Because she is female and Baba is saying BAAP KA RATH AAKAR LENGE,-He WILL TAKE Father Chariot, That would be MALE costume,
Baba had already indicated in Mu. That whomever he will enter HE Would Termed as BRAHMA.
According to other mu point you'll have to say that Dadi Gulzar IS MORE KNOWLEDGEABLE THAN BRAHMA?
What a rubbish thinking!
Even Avyakt Murli- it is said- even after Dadi Gulzar- BapDada may come in another corporeal bodily
In Sakar mu. Baba told about only two Chariot, one is Temporary (it must be DL.)and other is Permanent (who will be continue till the end.)
But your mean to say that after some time it can be Sarwvyapi,
Very good!

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by mbbhat » 15 Aug 2012

SM 22-3-78(2):- Toophaan bade zhor se aavenge dagmagaane ke liye. Parantu phir bhi tum apnaa purushaarth karte chalo. IS SHARIR KO BHULAANAA ATHVA BAAP KI Yaad MAY RAHNA BAAT EK HEE HAI. Apne ko atma ashareeri samajhna pade.

=... to forget this body and remember Father – both are one and the same. ..
[this point implies- there is no need to put effort to remeber Father. Because when you forget your body, automatically you will remember the Father. you will see the point of lights when you forget the body]

Sm 8-2-89(1, 2):- khaate peete jaise ki is shareer may hun hee naheen. Yah avasthaa pakkaa karnee hai. Tab 8 ratnon kee maalaa may aa saktey hain. Mehnath bigar thode hee oonch pad mil saktaa hai. Jeete ji dekhte huye samjhe ki main toh vahaan rahnevaalaa hun. Jaise baba ismey temporary baithaa hai, ab humko ghar jaanaa hai, jaise baba kaa mamatw naheen, vaise humko bhee ismey mamatw naheen rakhnaa hai. Baap ko toh is saheer may baithnaa padtaa zaroor. Tum bachchon ko samjhaane ke liye. Tumko ab vaapis chalnaa hai. Isliye koyi dehdhaari may mamatw na rahe. Yah phalaanee bahut achchee hai, meethee hai. Buddhi jaati hai na aatmaa ki. Bigar shareer atma ko dekhnaa hai. Baap kahte hain tumko aatma ko hee dekhnaa hai. Shareer ko dekhne se tum phas marenge. Badee manjil hai. Tumhaaraa bhee janm janmaantar kaa mamatw hai. Baba kaa mamatw naheen hai. Tab toh tum bachchon ko sikhlaane laayak hun. Baap khud kahte hain main toh is sahreer may naheen fastaa hun. Tum phase huye ho. Main tumko chudaane aayaa hun. Tumhaarey 84 janm poore huye. Ab shareer se bhaan nikaalo. Dehi abhimaani hokar na rahne se tum kahaan na kahaan faste rahenge. Koyi kee baath achchee lagegi. Koyi kaa shareer achchaa lagegaa. Toh ghar may bhee unki Yaad aati rahegi. Jism par pyaar hogaa toh haar khaa lenge. Aise bahut kharaab ho jaate hain. Baap kahte hain stree purush kaa sambandh chod apney ko aatmaa samjho. Yah bhee aatmaa, hum bhee aatmaa. Aatmaa samajhte2 shareer kaa bhaan nikaltaa jaayegaa. Baap ki Yaad se hee vikarm bhee vinaash honge. Is baath par tum achchee tarah se vsm kar saktey ho. Vsm karne bigar tum uchal naheen sakenge. Yah pakkaa honaa chaahiye ki humko baap ke paas jaanaa hai zaroor. Mool baath hai Yaad ki. 84 kaa chakr pooraa huvaa, phir shuru honaa hai. Is puraanee deh se mamatw na hataayaa toh phas padenge. Yaa koyi apney shareer may yaa koyi mitr sambandhi ke shareer may. Tumko toh kis_sey bhee dil naheen lagaanee hai. Apney ko aatmaa samajh baap ko Yaad karnaa hai. -52, 52- [Yaad]


= while eating, while drinking as if- I am not in the body. Those who practice this- come in 8. ...
Even while living, one should feel that i am there.
... If you have love in body, you will fail. ... You should see soul without body. If you see body, you will fail. ... You can do VSM (vichar sagar manthan) very well on this. Without doing VSM you will not fly.
------
I may put here few points. but for those who wish to have Murli points on file can email to me. I will send them as attachments.

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by arjun » 15 Aug 2012

Even while living, one should feel that i am there.... If you have love in body, you will fail. ... You should see soul without body. IIf you see body, you will fail. ... You can do VSM (vichar Sakar manthan) very well on this. Without doing VSM you will not fly.
You are mixing your manmat (own thoughts) in this. Baba always says that you have to practice the stage of not seeing while observing (देखते हुए न देखो) You have to see the soul even while seeing the body.

“पढ़ाई फुर्सत के समय होती है। सारा दिन तो धन्धा आदि करते हैं। विचार सागर मंथन करने के लिए फुर्सत चाहिए, शान्ति चाहिए। समझो, कोई को करेन्ट देनी है, कोई अच्छी सर्विस करने वाला बच्चा है, तो उनको मदद करनी है। उनकी आत्मा को याद करना पड़ता है। शरीर को याद कर फिर आत्मा को याद करना है। यह युक्ति रचनी है। सर्विसएबुल बच्चे को तकलीफ है तो उनको मदद करनी है। बाप को याद करना है फिर खुद को भी आत्मा समझ कुछ न कुछ उनकी आत्मा को भी याद करना है। चलते-फिरते भोजन खाते भी बाप को याद करो। दूसरे को करेन्ट देना है तो फिर रात्रि को भी जागो।“(ब्रह्माकुमारियों द्वारा प्रकाशित रिवाइज़्ड साकार मुरली दिनांक २०.०३.०९, पृ. ३)

“Studies take place in leisure time. Throughout the day you do business, etc. Leisure time, peace is required to churn the ocean of thoughts. Suppose, current (i.e. power) is to be given to someone; if a child does good service, then he has to be helped. His soul has to be remembered. First the body and then the soul is to be remembered. This method should be adopted. If a serviceable child is in trouble, he has to be helped. The Father should be remembered and then while considering oneself also to be a soul, his soul should also be remembered to some extent or the other. While moving around, while eating food also you should remember the Father. If you have to give current to others, then you should also wake up at night.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 20.03.09, pg 3 published by BKs in Hindi, narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba; translated by a PBK; the words within brackets in the English version have been added by the translator to clarify the meaning)

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by mbbhat » 15 Aug 2012

Rudraakash wrote:What a rubbish thinking!
You may feel so. It is OK.

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by Rudraakash » 15 Aug 2012

You may feel so. It is OK.
Try to understand the knowledge, Do't show that you are supreme.
Sakar AND Avyakt Both parts are going on simultaneously and separatety.
Just see carefully

Av 18-1-70
VYAKT ME AB BHI SAHARA HAI.....Yah pure parivar ka Sakar SAHARA bahut shrestha hai, Avyakt ME TO SATH HAI HI.... Sakar AKELA NAHI HAI, PRAJAPITA BRHMA TO UNKE SATH PARIWAR HAI.
Above point says that VYAKT is non other than PRAJAPITA. And Dadi never termed as PRAJAPITA.

AV 16-1-79
Sakar KE 42-43 Warsh aur Avyakt ke 10 Warsh to 50 se bhi upar chale gaye.

After 69,if only one part is going on then calculate and show that how can the above 50 year calculation right?

rmn

Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by rmn » 15 Aug 2012

"While listeing to Murli, feel that you are in Paramdham sitting and hearing to Baba- and it is a point teaching to point."

My dear Mbbhat soul brother as per above pl clarify:
Alone soul and alone body cannot do any thing, as such who the point to point teaching will success.
thank

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by mbbhat » 15 Aug 2012

Av 18-1-70
1)VYAKT ME AB BHI SAHARA HAI.....2)Yah pure parivar ka Sakar SAHARA bahut shrestha hai, 3)Avyakt ME TO SATH HAI HI.... 4)Sakar AKELA NAHI HAI, PRAJAPITA BRHMA TO UNKE SATH PARIWAR HAI.
5)Above point says that VYAKT is non other than PRAJAPITA. And Dadi never termed as PRAJAPITA.

1)Yes, even in vyakt BapDada is supporting BKs through vyakt body of Gulzar Dadi, may be few times per year.
2) the pure family - gathering, company and blessings of Bk souls to each other.
3)Yes, in Avyakt- there is saath due to remembrance
4) to explain this, I may need the previous sentence which is not mentioned there. But still - I will explain this in the next post. see there.
5)need not be. The word vyakt could have been used for Dadi here. as already explained in 1)
AV 16-1-79
Sakar KE 42-43 Warsh aur Avyakt ke 10 Warsh to 50 se bhi upar chale gaye.
Sakar paalnaa - through Brahma Baba- 32-33 years and
Sakar palana through Gulzar Dadi 10 yrs.
Avyakt paalnaa after 1969 - 10 yrs (there is no need of Dadi for Avyakt paalnaa. It is by thoughts)
Adding all- becomes 52 yrs.

I mean- after 1969, the plaana is both Sakar and Avyakt. Even in Avyakt, Bap and Dada are helping children and even in Sakar, few times a year, BapDada comes in Dadi Gulzar.

And even if you take Murlis being read- since 1969, just Sakar Murlis were being read in centres. But- after 1969, both revised Sakar Murlis as well as Avyakt Murlis are being read. [Sakar Murlis are also read, is it not?]

If PBKs believe Sakar paalnaa of 42 to 43 yrs is 1937 to 69 (throguh DL) and from 1969 to 1979 through Mr. dixit, then why do they say their Chariot's revelation took place in 1976? They should have announced it as 1969 itself, is it not?

I think- many members here have wrote that- It is after around 1980, dixit started to give knowledge. Then how can it be said that there was paalnaa through AIVV from 1969 itself?


You may assume something, I may see it in different way. Of course, But, some BKs will get impressed by your data, when PBKs point according to their needs. I can go on tackling them as i have just done here.

The debate will never end.

Baba says- sit in trikaaldarshi stage- you will never get confused. Take the issue as a whole (for the whole of Confluence Age of the whole of 5000 yrs). then you will not have confusion.

But - if an elephant is explained just by its tail, or just by its legs, these confusions will be even higher.

Lots of queries are there where PBKs are not able to explain to many ex PBKs here. What can be said- when they claim god is present in Sakar with them and that too- discusses the knowledge.

When I saw here that- PBKs have changed their date many times- from 1997 to 2007 to 2017/18, PBKs say- there is guhy meaning, unlimited meaning. And if I write my views, you may say- "Rubbish thinking"

most surprising is- PBKs could not recognize the typing mistakes done by BKs in Murlis and assumed them as it is and went on explaining them. what excuse can AIVV have here? even if they acknowledge, what is the use (because they will have to say- their god also could not recognize them). Very few PBKs only who have read my posts are aware of these typing mistakes. Others are moving with the same points with full authority.

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by mbbhat » 16 Aug 2012

Continuation from last post-
4)....Sakar AKELA NAHI HAI, PRAJAPITA BRHMA TO UNKE SATH PARIWAR HAI.
5)Above point says that VYAKT is non other than PRAJAPITA. And Dadi never termed as PRAJAPITA.
4)actually, this is very simple to understand.

Here Sakar means Soul of Brahma Baba, That is all. Of course, now he is in vyakt. but, Baba refers to the same soul since all remember him as Sakar Baba. even while narrating Yagya history, Dadis used to speak- Sakar Baba used to say this, this, etc.

So- here, Baba (Bap-Dada) may be pointing to Dadis. Because many of them might be still in the intoxication of Sakar paalnaa. so- Baba is saying-

brahma Baba is not alone. He is with the family (you all).

5)This is interpretation of PBKs. BKs even today believe Brahma Baba as Prajapita. why should Prajapita be in vyakt always? children need knowledge and paalnaa. that is all.

PBKs quote Murli points to support their claim. When I quote some other Murli points- PBKs say- that actually refers to after 1976. But when I say- this may be upto 1969 only, PBKs say- "It is your manmath".
--------
the following Avyakt Murli point syas- the word Sakar is used for soul of Brahma Baba even after 1969.:-

AM 12-9-77(2):- Ab beeti so beeti kar sadaiv aisaa samjho main bachchaa hun, baap ke saath hun. Yah samajhne se vah bachpan ki jeevan smruti may rahegi. Jitnaa yah smruti rahegaa, toh us_se madad milegi. Phir mushkil kaary sahaj ho jaayegaa. AB SE APNE KO EK SECOND BHI BAAP SE ALAG NA SAMJHO. Sadaiv samjho- BAAP KE SAATH BHI HAI, aur Baap ke haath may meraa haath hai. Agar koyi bade ke haath may haath hota hai, toh chote ki sthiti bephikar, nishchint rahti hai. Toh samajhnaa chahiye har karm may BapDada meraa saathi bhi hai, aur humaarey is alowkik jeevan kaa haath unkey haath hain arthaath alowkik jeevan unkey havaaley hain. Jimmevaari unki ho jati. Sab bhoj Baap ke oopar rakh apney ko halka kar dena hai. Bhoj hee na hogaa toh mushkil lagegaa? Bhoj utaarney kaa vaa mushkil ko sahaj karne kaa saadhan hai baap kaa haath aur saath. Yah to sahaj hai na. Phir chahe Baap smruti may aaye, chaahe daadaa smruti may aaye. Baap ki smruti aayegi toh saath may daadaa ki bhi rahegee hi. Daadaa ki smruti se baap ki smruti bhi rahegi hee. ALAG HO NAHIN SAKTE. Agar Sakar snehi ban jate ho, to bhi aur sabse buddhi toot javegi na. Sakar snehi ban_naa bhi kam baath nahin hai. Sakar SNEH BHI SARV SNEH SE, ANEK SAMBANDHON SE BUDDHIYOG TUDAA DETE HAIN. To anek taraf se tod ek taraf jodney kaa saadhan to hai na. Sakar se niraakar zaroor Yaad aavegaa. Sakar se sneh bhi tab paidaa huvaa jab baap daadaa donon kaa saath huvaa na. Agar Baap kaa saath na hota to Sakar itnaa priy thode hee huvaa. Jaise BapDada donon saath hain, vaise aapki Yaad bhi saath2 ho jaavegi. -17- [Yaad, saath]

Sorry for not translating this. If i get time, i will edit this later to translate.
---
In this way- I can go on replying to PBKs.

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by mbbhat » 16 Aug 2012

rmn wrote:"While listeing to Murli, feel that you are in Paramdham sitting and hearing to Baba- and it is a point teaching to point."

My dear Mbbhat soul Brother as per above pl clarify:
Alone soul and alone body cannot do any thing, as such who the point to point teaching will success.
thank
Dear soul,
Obviously- just a soul cannot do anything. I will be doing this practice while being inside my body itself- is it not? Did i say- to do this practice, i need to die? (come out of this body physically)?

Just think- just a soul or just a body cannot do anything -right? But the internal practice to become soul conscious - is to forget body.

Before coming to gyaan, we were not aware of soul at all. but could not we work? People can work, even if they consider themselves as just body (lowkik people) or just soul (we people).
If one feels - I am just body, then the output will be fully negative, But if one feels i am just soul, the output will be highest positive. If one feels i am both, then there would be mixture.

To do practice body is essential for the soul. That does not imply- one should also think the body. for example- we need to eat food to live, we need house to live (to maintain body). does that imply- we should remember all those needs of body even while remembering God.

According to my knowledge- What PBKs say is- most of the time, you would be in Sakar world. so even for purification of soul, you should also think Sakar with niraakaar. It is like saying like this- "most of the time, we would be wearing clothes. So- even while taking bath, one should not remove cloth (not forget body)"

In fact, we become impure by remembering Sakar only. We should take dependency of Sakar only to the needed extent. That is why Baba says- try to forget body and all bodily relations and materials.

If combination of Sakar and niraakaar is the highest value, then even God should also do that practice that always= should remember Sakar and niraakaar together even while being in Paramdham. why is he keeping quiet there?

Niraakaar is battery and Sakar is load. Sakar is dependent on niraakaar and not vice versa. A soul can remain indefinitely in Paramdham even if there is no body. But a body will perish in Sakar world, if no soul is present in it.

If we need to become Baap samaan (close to ShivBaba), we should feel that i am like ShivBaba, point. If we need to degrade, we may think of body.

[Now- if someone argues- how can you become equal to ShivBaba, you can become equal to only Sakar Father, then Sakar Baba is also a student only, of course, first rank holder. Teacher is just ShivBaba alone. Is it said to all other students- that- while studying, you should always remember the first rank student with the teacher or the subject?

Of course, it is said- follow the first rank student. But it is never said- think of the first rank student as you think of the teacher/subject.
-----
It is in sleep we get highest relaxation- why? Because we forget all the body and materials.
If you wish to remember body, then remember you all bodies- 84 births. That is OK- but attachment to one impure, present body is wrong. Because-

A person lives for 100 yrs (say). If he thinks just last period (old age), he is a fool. He will get highest enjoyment if he thinks that- i lived for full 100 years or thinks of his childhood and youth.

Similarly, we should think of childhood (Paramdham) and youth (heaven). then only there can be enjoyment.

else- if think our last birth's body, let it be of self or the Chariot- it is like we remembering our life from 90 to 100 yrs.

Even if you remember all the 84 births (churn swadarshan chakra), finally automatically your mind will get concentrated on the first 21 births.
--------
The more we think body- more we become dependent on body in many ways-
Our desires increase.
we need to work for our food.
We are affected by body and its conditions and need more expenditure to sustain it.

In Satyug, there is no need to work for our food. Because nature is our servant there.But when we begin to think of body from Copper Age, there begins need to work (karm bandhan) to earn for body maintenance.

And in Kaliyug, everyone from age 3 (at school for studies) works and till almost death, - by looking after grandchildren.

As our effort becomes better- the need to work reduces . Even service activities become less and we will be able to do service by thoughts and gestures/virtues.

That is why as we become more and more yogis- we become even physically liberated and Brahma Baba is the number one soul who has no work at all. and even the Advance Party souls- some of the Dadi, dids, they also are free, because they will be doing service by their vibrations and virtues. No need of thinking knowledge, etc.

Nurli point- Leen avasthaa ko hee sabsey oonchi sthiti gaayaa jaata hai arthath mujhe koyi kaam nahin hai = the highest stage is considered as leen stage which means i have no work.

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by mbbhat » 16 Aug 2012

I forgot to point the main issue asked by rmn soul:-

The point here is- You be conscious of two points- feel one as yourself and another as Baba (god with all his powers and virtues).

PBKs sometime say/argue- how to distinguish yourself fro Baba when both are similar (points)?

this is the reason why they say, ShivBaba should be remembered in a body. OK, this has a value. but, there would be two points in body of Dixit then- including the soul fo dixit- so how to distinguish them? so- even then the purpose solved is just zero.
Hence it becomes negative. they are bonding ShivBaba to one body (bonding the bodyless soul(God) into a body).
--
now to the point- Actually- there is no need to distinguish fully. We experience what we try to feel. Jaisee drushti, vaisee srusthi.

Two lovers love each other. The dress they wear, the place where they remember each other is immaterial in the experience. But, they should be able to identify their faces. the dress has no value.

similarly- here- I should identify my face and Baba's face (both are identical= points).

It is what we feel in the self, and the other (lover or relation = ShivBaba here) and the capacity (power) of the other that we experience.

Suppose say- two children thinking their Father. One Father may be beggar another doctor, rich, etc,

now- the first child (belonging to beggar) while remembering his Father will not get any power, because it feels that it is beggar.

The second child may remembers with enthusiasm because - it feels doctor in its Father. so- there feeling of power due to faith. But- that could be even dream also. If it receives paalna from its Father, then only the faith goes on improving. else- it would be blind faith.

So- now- if PBKs restrict their ShivBaba to be limited to one body, and assume ShivBaba can give only through body/organs- even for remembrance- then how can there be super sensuous joy? [Of course, to give knowledge, shiv needs body, even we should use our ears to listen/hear to the knowledge.

but, to remember ShivBaba, should we apply the same logic?

even in lowkik, two friends or lovers- initially- to introduce themselves- use their mouth and ears. But to remember, is there need of them? No. they can silently remember each other.

So- use organs, only to the extent necessary.- to understand knowledge. no need to think the organs/body even while remembering. Else, if we feel we should think of body even while remembering, it is ignorance, unrighteous, burden and also leading to lesser efficiency

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by mbbhat » 16 Aug 2012

How- to know whether our faith is right or blind faith?

If one has knowledge and faith, then only he can do this. (Knowledge makes our resolution better). So- if you have faith then proceed. Then. you should get power from Baba. (like the doctor gives paalnaa (sustenance) to his child).

So- if you receive paalnaa (power) from Baba, continue. Else- [It means-

[You have no faith, or
did not understand it (knowledge) or
the knowledge itself is wrong ]

So- if you did not get right power, you may try to understand better by reading more and more Murlis with better devotion or any other effort to remember Baba by forgetting bodies(if you still have faith) or

else- you may search different knowledge and proceed.

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by arjun » 16 Aug 2012

1)Yes, even in vyakt BapDada is supporting BKs through vyakt body of Gulzar Dadi, may be few times per year.
If Gulzar Dadi was the corporeal medium, why that part called Avyakt Part and the Vanis called Avyakt Vanis and not Sakar Murlis?
I mean- after 1969, the plaana is both Sakar and Avyakt. Even in Avyakt, Bap and Dada are helping children and even in Sakar, few times a year, BapDada comes in Dadi Gulzar.
Reply same as above.
If PBKs believe Sakar paalnaa of 42 to 43 yrs is 1937 to 69 (throguh DL) and from 1969 to 1979 through Mr. dixit, then why do they say their Chariot's revelation took place in 1976? They should have announced it as 1969 itself, is it not?
Shiv started entering Baba Virendra Dev Dixit's body from 1969 itself and he started intimating Dadi Prakashmani about his churnings on knowledge through registered post. But all of them were outrightly rejected by her as an act of madness. It was only in 1976 that some BK mothers/brothers recognized the practical part of ShivBaba through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit. That is why that year (or 1977) was declared as the year of destruction (of demoniac elements within the Yagya) and as the year of revelation of the Father in the Avyakt Vanis. So, it cannot be said that the Sakar sustenance started only from 1976.
most surprising is- PBKs could not recognize the typing mistakes done by BKs in Murlis and assumed them as it is and went on explaining them. what excuse can AIVV have here?
Already discussed. The typing mistake of comma or full stop that you pointed out are of no significance. You have no answers for the huge portions of Murlis having been cut by BKWSU. So, you have no right to talk of the typing mistakes involving full stop, comma or an alphabet.
4)actually, this is very simple to understand.

Here Sakar means Soul of Brahma Baba, That is all. Of course, now he is in vyakt. but, Baba refers to the same soul since all remember him as Sakar Baba. even while narrating Yagya history, Dadis used to speak- Sakar Baba used to say this, this, etc.

So- here, Baba (BapDada) may be pointing to Dadis. Because many of them might be still in the intoxication of Sakar paalnaa. so- Baba is saying-

Brahma Baba is not alone. He is with the family (you all).
Once Brahma Baba left his body in 1969, he can no longer be called Sakar. It is only for your individual satisfaction and gratification that you can think your imagination to be truth. The truth is that he is no more in Sakar.
5)This is interpretation of PBKs. BKs even today believe Brahma Baba as Prajapita. why should Prajapita be in vyakt always? children need knowledge and paalnaa. that is all.

PBKs quote Murli points to support their claim. When I quote some other Murli points- PBKs say- that actually refers to after 1976. But when I say- this may be upto 1969 only, PBKs say- "It is your manmath".
"Sookshmavatanvasi Brahma, Vishnu, Shankar ko devataa kahtey hain. Aisey kahaan bhi likha hua nahee hai ki Prajapita Brahma sookshmavatan vaasi hai. Sookshmavatan may thodey hee praja hoti hai. Prajapita Brahma toh jaroor yahaan hee chaahiye. Oonch tay oonch ShivBaba fir second number may hai Brahma." (BKs dwara prakaashit revised Sakar Murli taareekh 30.10.07, pg 3)

“Subtle Region dwellers Brahma, Vishnu, Shankar are called deities. It has not been written anywhere that Prajapita is a Subtle Region dweller. There is no praja (subjects) in the Subtle Region. Prajapita Brahma is certainly required here. Highest on high is ShivBaba; then in the second number is Brahma.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 30.10.07, pg 3 published by BKs)
the following Avyakt Murli point syas- the word Sakar is used for soul of Brahma Baba even after 1969.:-
This is again a proof of the new part of Shankar being played in the world of us brahmins. The Moon on Shankar's face is Brahma Baba (Dada) and Baap is Shiv+Prajapita. Bap and Dada cannot be separated at all.

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by arjun » 16 Aug 2012

According to my knowledge- What PBKs say is- most of the time, you would be in Sakar world. so even for purification of soul, you should also think Sakar with niraakaar. It is like saying like this- "most of the time, we would be wearing clothes. So- even while taking bath, one should not remove cloth (not forget body)"
This is an absurd example. Baba says you have to see the soul while being in the body and even while seeing the body. देखते हुए न देखो। For 5000 years you have to be with the body. So, you have to practice soul consciousness while being in the body while seeing the body. That is why the rajyog that Baba teaches us is karmyog and not hathyog which BKs practice sitting for hours together in hathyog like asan. In the practical world you have to see the soul with the body. So, you have to practice seeing the soul within the body, but without being attached to the body just like the lotus flower.

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