Presence of ShivBaba

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by Rudraakash » 16 Aug 2012

Dear bhatt Bhai
First clear one thing, whom do you want to call VYAKT OR Sakar?
1)Yes, even in vyakt BapDada is supporting BKs through vyakt body of Gulzar Dadi, may be few times per year.
Again you wrote.
the following Avyakt Murli point syas- the word Sakar is used for soul of Brahma Baba even after 1969.:-
You are not getting your self that what do you want to say.
Now For your kind information that Baapdada is Always Avyakt, never can say VYAKT BAAPDADA as you wrote above. Because you can not see that part through these physical eyes, You can see that part only through the GYAAN CHAKSHU OR KNOWLEDGEABLE EYES. And To listen regular mu. Or knowledge in only for to continue our firm belief toward SAKARI part, thats why baba says MAN MANA BHAV Merge your intellect with my intellect, and listen want i want to say.

For this sakari part baba told in Avyakt Vani..
Pahle gyaan aata hai fir GYAAN DATA AATA HAI
Av
Mukhya shakti hai PARKHNE KI SHAKTI, Pahle BAAP KO PARKHENGE...,PARAKHNE KI SHAKTI SE TUMNE BAAP KO JANA HAI,
Av
Sakari sharasti par Sakari netro dwara DONO BAAP KO DEKHNA(mean you can see Shiva in prajapita. But you want to say that Dadi is prajapita. Very good.) YAH BRAHMAN JEEVAN KA SARVSHRETA BHAGYA Hai, aisa bhagya poore kalp me prapt nhe hoga.
Av
Baap is samay HAZIR NAZIR (according to you Dadi is baap, good)HAI,
Above Avyakt Vani are saying that Prajapita baap is in front of our physical eyes but few point says you can see him or recognize him only through the Knowledge or intellect. Same thing is told in BHAGWAD Gita
न तु मां शक्यसे द्रष्टमनेनैव स्वचक्षुषा ।
दिव्यं ददामि ते चक्षुः पश्य मे योगमैश्वरम्‌ ॥
भावार्थ : परन्तु मुझको तू इन अपने प्राकृत नेत्रों द्वारा देखने में निःसंदेह समर्थ नहीं है, इसी से मैं तुझे दिव्य अर्थात अलौकिक चक्षु देता हूँ, इससे तू मेरी ईश्वरीय योग शक्ति को देख॥8
So this thing can neither apply for bindu nor for Dadi Gulzar

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by shivsena » 18 Aug 2012

arjun wrote:
All the memorials in the path of Bhakti pertain to acts performed in this Confluence Age in practical
Can you or any pbk clarify which is the memorial in Bhakti-path of ''Shiva entering no. 1 patit kami kanta''... also if there is any word "praveshtum" in Bhakti-Gita as you have mentioned elsewhere, i would like to know which chapter and which verse it is.

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by mbbhat » 20 Aug 2012

If Gulzar Dadi was the corporeal medium, why that part called Avyakt Part and the Vanis called Avyakt Vanis and not Sakar Murlis?
I never came into such conflicts. I call both of them as Murlis.
And all the BKs need not understand the meanings. so- by pointing what some BKs speak, I think you cannot say or claim that meaning of Murli point (what Baba means) is that (what some BKs say).

It is really foolishness of PBKs- instead of thinking on neutral way while interpreting Murli point. they take support of BKs' belief when it fits their need. Very silly.

Even if it is so (if there is difference in Vani and Murli words) - it does not disprove what I said. Because forget about the madhuban milan for few times a year. In every centre, both Sakar Murlis and Avyakt Vanis are read after 1969. so- there is paalanaa of both Sakar Murli as well as Avyakt Vani after 1969. Even though I have written them clearly you did not understand.

Interesting thing is- PBKs can claim that even AIVV had done paalanaa of BKWSW just by sending the documents by regsistered post. But cannot accept both the paalanas when both types are Murlis are read in BK centres from 1969.

Actually- paalanaa for 10 years means there should be continuous flow- like study of Murlis. And not just by posting few points and claiming something.

And BKWSU had rejected dixit's claims. So- how can that be paalanaa from AIVV for 10 years?

For example- if any lowkik person comes to centre, takes a day or few days of course, but does not believe in BKWSU teaching, and leaves, then we will not believe that he had taken paalanaa for 10 years. We will say- just a message has been given to him.
Already discussed. The typing mistake of comma or full stop that you pointed out are of no significance. You have no answers for the huge portions of Murlis having been cut by BKWSU. So, you have no right to talk of the typing mistakes involving full stop, comma or an alphabet.
this question can always be asked to PBKs. - Why the Chariot of PBKs could not recognize typing mistakes in Murlis. Accusing BKWSU for cutting Murlis does not give a gate to escape for PBKs from this question (great mistake). Is it not a like saying lie to escape from this question?
It has not been written anywhere that Prajapita is a Subtle Region dweller.
Baba is pointing Bhaktimarg scripture. That is all. What is there in this? moreover that Murli point can be for the previous period. but note that- i have provided one more Murli point that says- Prajapita is also in Subtle Region.
This is again a proof of the new part of Shankar being played in the world of us Brahmins. The Moon on Shankar's face is Brahma Baba (Dada) and Baap is Shiv+Prajapita. Bap and Dada cannot be separated at all.
Shankar = shiv (need not be VIrendra dixit)
moon = brahma Baba. Very simple.

Now- why the moon is shown as crescent? Because moon is always shown like that. Else, if it is shown as full in pictures, then it would be difficult to discriminate that from sun.

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by mbbhat » 20 Aug 2012

One more Murli point that says- Prajapita in Subtle Region:-

SM 26-10-83(1):- ShivBaba samjhaate hain bachchon ko is Brahma ke rath dwara. ... Mujhe apna rath nahin. Mujhe rath toh zaroor chaahiye. Jaise tum harek atma ko apna2 rath hai na. BVS ko bhi sookshm sharir hai na. ...............To Baap kahte hain main aavoon toh kaise? Kiske sharir may avoon? Pahley2 toh mujhe Prajapita chaahiye. SOOKSHMVATANVAASI PRAJAPITA KO YAHAAN KAISE LE AA SAKTAA? VAH TOH FARISTA HAI NA. UNKO PATIT DUNIYAA MAY LE AAVOON, YE TOH DOSH HO JAAYE. KAHENGE MAINEY KYAA GUNAAH KIYAA. Baap samjhaate hain badi ramaneek baatein hain. Samjhegaa vo hi jo baap kaa banaa hogaa. Ghadi2 baap ko yad kartaa rahega. Baap kahte hain main aataa hun, jab dharti par paap badh jaataa hai. Kaliyug may manushy kitney paap karte hain. Bhrashthaachaar hai. Bandar misal ek do ko daraate rahte hain. Baath math poocho. Toh bap poochte hain, bachche, bataavo- main aavoon, toh kis tan may aavoon. MUJHE CHAAHIYE BHI VRUDDH ANUBHAVI RATH. YAH JO MAINE RATH LIYAA HAI, BAROBAR INKAY BAHUT GURU KIYE HUYE HAIN. SHAASTR AADI PADHAA HUVAA HAI. Yah bhi likhaa hai na, bahut padhaa huvaa thaa. Arjun ki baath nahin. Mujhe arjun ka, va Krishn ka rath thode hi chaahiye. Mujhe toh chaahiye brahma ka rath. Unko hi Prajapita kahenge. Krishn ko toh Prajapita nahin kahenge. Manushyon ki buddhi may kitni moorkhataa bhari huyi hai. Kuch bhi samajhte nahin. Baap ko toh brahma ka hi rath chaahiye jis_sey braahmanon ki prajaa rache. Braahmanon ka hai sarvottam kul. Virat roop dikhaate hain na. D, K, V, S. Baaki braahman kahaan gaye? Yah kisko bhi pataa nahin. Oonch te oonch hai braahmanon ki choti. -27- [Prajapita]-vimp

=................ In whose body should I come? First I need Prajapita. How can I bring the subtle word resident Prajapita here? He is angel, is it not? If I bring him in the impute world, it would be faulty. (He will complain) what wrong/sin have I done (to bring me in this impure world)? These are ramaneek matters…...... I need old experienced body. The Chariot which i have taken has had many gurus. He has read scriptures. ...

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by mbbhat » 20 Aug 2012

Rudraakash wrote:Av
Baap is samay HAZIR NAZIR (according to you Dadi is baap, good)HAI,
See the meaning of haajir naajir from av point-

AM 29-3-81 [with pandav):- Jo sadaa combined roop may rahte hain, uskey aage BapDada Sakar may jaise sarv sambandhon se saamney hote hain. Jitni lagan hogi, utni jaldi BapDada sammney hoga. Yah nahin, niraakaar hai, aakaar hai, baatein kaise karey. Jo aapas may bhi baatein karne time lagtaa hai, dhoondhenge. Yahaan ton dhoondhne va time ki bhi zaroorath nahin. Jahaan bulaavo, vahaan haajir. Isliye kahte hain haajiraa hajoor. Toh aisey anubhav hota hai? Abhi toh din pratidin aisey dekhenge ki jaise practical may anubhav kiyaa ki aaj BapDada aaye, saamney aaye, haath pakdaa, buddhi se nahin, aankhon se dekhenge anubhav hoga. Lekin ismey sirf ek Baap doosraa na koyi- yah path pakkaa ho. Phir toh jaise parchaahyi ghoomti hai, aisey BapDada aankhon se hath/huth nahin saktey. -40- [Yaad, Sakar-niraakaar, haajiraa hajoor]


= Those who always remain in combined from, with them it is as good as BapDada(Bap-Dada) is in front of them in Sakar in all relations. More the lagan (love and faith) is, faster BapDada will appear in front of them. It is not that- Bap-Dada is incorporeal, sublte, how can we talk. Even if you are in Sakar, you need time to see, talk, and search (for those people). (But) here, there is no need of time, even to search. wherever you calll, (Bap-Dada) is haazir. That is why it is said as Haajir hajoor. So- do you expereince like this? Now, as days pass, you will see- like in practical you have expereinced - Bap-Dada came, came in front, held my hand, - (you will not experience this by intellect), but you will exeperince this as if through the physical eyes. but, in this- "just One Father but none. " - this lesson should be pukka. Then like shadow follows you, similarly Bap-Dada cannot go out of your eyes.
----------
so- it is up to PBKs to interpret according to their needs.

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by shivsena » 20 Aug 2012

Rudraakash wrote:न तु मां शक्यसे द्रष्टमनेनैव स्वचक्षुषा ।
दिव्यं ददामि ते चक्षुः पश्य मे योगमैश्वरम्‌ ॥
भावार्थ : परन्तु मुझको तू इन अपने प्राकृत नेत्रों द्वारा देखने में निःसंदेह समर्थ नहीं है, इसी से मैं तुझे दिव्य अर्थात अलौकिक चक्षु देता हूँ, इससे तू मेरी ईश्वरीय योग शक्ति को देख॥8
So this thing can neither apply for bindu nor for Dadi Gulzar
Does the Bhakti-quote not apply to Virendra Dev Dixit also, who is also seen with these two eyes.....so who is to be seen with the divya-chaksu(divine eyes) ??

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by mbbhat » 21 Aug 2012

arjun soul wrote:- There used to be no prior intimation of Shiv's entry in Brahma Baba. But BapDada's entry in Dadi is announced many months in advance. Murlis say Shiv's birth cannot be predicted, Krishna's birth can be. So, Shiv doesn't enter in Dadi.
I think- Actually just the first entrance of shiv can be called as birth for shiv, and not the later entrances. Similarly the Murli point baba says is for the instant when Krishna comes out of his mother's womb and not for soul of DL in Confluence Age.

OK, let us agree with PBKs' interpretations. Then-

How can entrance of soul DL in Dadi can be called as birth of Krishna? Because birth means receiving Father and mother. Who are parents of DL soul when he enters Dadi?

So- do PBKs believe that Krishna or shiv takes birth several times in Confluence Age (since they refer to all the dates of milan through Dadi)?

Can PBKs announce these dates before BKWSU? Actually, they also should be able to announce the dates. Because they say- soul of DL also enters VD. Then even that is also birth of DL, (according to their own claims) is it not? So- they should at least be able to predict the date with the exact instants when DL soul returns back to VD after leaving Gulzar Dadi, is it not?
------
more things-
and Baba says- Shiv does not ride Chariot all the day. so- when shiv leaves the body, will the soul of DL be in the body of Dixit or go with shiv?

Can they say- what is the duration of the presence of shiv in VD's body - (apart from the Murli discussions of their Chariot )?
---------
Note:- the Murli point says- the instant of birth of Krishna and not just the date. But no one in BKWSU can predict the exact instant of entrance in Dadi with minutes and seconds. so- how can they claim that the Murli point is applicable to the milan through Dadi Gulzar?

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by arjun » 21 Aug 2012

mbbhat wrote:Interesting thing is- PBKs can claim that even AIVV had done paalanaa of BKWSW just by sending the documents by regsistered post. But cannot accept both the paalanas when both types are Murlis are read in BK centres from 1969.

Actually- paalanaa for 10 years means there should be continuous flow- like study of Murlis. And not just by posting few points and claiming something.

And BKWSU had rejected dixit's claims. So- how can that be paalanaa from AIVV for 10 years?
If God gives message and children reject it, it can only be called ego. A memorial exists in the path of Bhakti. Before the start of Mahabharata war, after all other ways of maintaining peace by Pandavas failed they sent Krishna to the court of Kauravas with their last message, but even there he was humiliated and the message of peace was rejected by egotistic Kauravas. And the result was dharmayuddh (the war for establishing dharma). Same is the case with BKs and PBKs. From the day one, BKs have been rejecting the PBKs. For many decades they did not even accept the existence of the PBKs. But now they are worried about their own existence.
OOKSHMVATANVAASI PRAJAPITA KO YAHAAN KAISE LE AA SAKTAA? VAH TOH FARISTA HAI NA. UNKO PATIT DUNIYAA MAY LE AAVOON, YE TOH DOSH HO JAAYE. KAHENGE MAINEY KYAA GUNAAH KIYAA.
This is not about any Prajapita in the Subtle Region. It is about the Prajapita that exists in the corporeal world. Through his mind and intellect he always remains in a detached, angel like stage same as that of Shankar. Since BKs don't have any example of any person with such angelic stage they misguide the world by speaking of an imaginary Subtle Region. Whatever goal that ShivBaba sets for us including the stage of farishta is for the present Confluence Age in this very corporeal world and not in the Subtle Region. But if you wish to live in an imaginary utopian world you are free to do so.
I think- Actually just the first entrance of Shiv can be called as birth for Shiv, and not the later entrances. Similarly the Murli point Baba says is for the instant when Krishna comes out of his mother's womb and not for soul of DL in Confluence Age.

OK, let us agree with PBKs' interpretations. Then-

How can entrance of soul DL in Dadi can be called as birth of Krishna? Because birth means receiving Father and mother. Who are parents of DL soul when he enters Dadi?

So- do PBKs believe that Krishna or Shiv takes birth several times in Confluence Age (since they refer to all the dates of milan through Dadi)?

Can PBKs announce these dates before BKWSU? Actually, they also should be able to announce the dates. Because they say- soul of DL also enters VD. Then even that is also birth of DL, (according to their own claims) is it not? So- they should at least be able to predict the date with the exact instants when DL soul returns back to VD after leaving Gulzar Dadi, is it not?
------
more things-
and Baba says- Shiv does not ride Chariot all the day. so- when Shiv leaves the body, will the soul of DL be in the body of Dixit or go with Shiv?

Can they say- what is the duration of the presence of Shiv in VD's body - (apart from the Murli discussions of their Chariot )?
---------
Note:- the Murli point says- the instant of birth of Krishna and not just the date. But no one in BKWSU can predict the exact instant of entrance in Dadi with minutes and seconds. so- how can they claim that the Murli point is applicable to the milan through Dadi Gulzar?
Birth does not mean physical birth. Birth means revelation.
All other questions asked by you on this flimsy ground are childish and meaningless, just for the sake of arguement.
Read the following Murli point once again to know the difference between the birth (entry) of Shiv and birth (entry) of Krishna in a human being:

"Shivraatri kahtey hain parantu Shiv ke badley Krishna ka naam kah diya hai ki Krishna ka janma raat ko hua. Hai ShivBaba kee baat. ShivBaba kee tithi taareekh vela ka kuchch bhi pataa nahee ki kis samay aaya. Krishna kee vela hai. Vah punarjanma may aaney vala hai. ShivBaba toh jhat aakar parichay deney lag padtey hain. Kuchch samay toh pataa hee nahee padaa ki yah kaun aaya hai? Kaun bol rahey hain? Baad may maaloom padaa ki yah toh ShivBaba gyaan ka saagar hai." (BKs dwara prakaashit revised Sakar Murli taareekh 23.11.07, pg 3)

“People say ‘Shivraatri’ but instead of Shiv they have mentioned the name of Krishna that Krishna was born in the night. (Actually) it is about ShivBaba. We do not know anything about the date and time of ShivBaba as to when He came. There is time (mentioned) for Krishna. He takes rebirth. ShivBaba comes and starts giving introduction at once. For some time it was not known as to who is it that has come. Who is speaking? It was known later that it is ShivBaba, the Ocean of Knowledge.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 23.11.07, pg 3 published by BKs)

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by mbbhat » 21 Aug 2012

Thanks for giving more details about (mis) interpretation of Murli points by PBKs.

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by Rudraakash » 21 Aug 2012

Mbbhatt wrote:In every centre, both Sakar Murlis and Avyakt Vanis are read after 1969. so- there is paalanaa of both Sakar Murli as well as Avyakt Vani after 1969. Even though I have written them clearly you did not understand.
This is your manmat that after 69 BKs are getting both Palna, SHASTRA(paper mu,) CAN NOT GIVE GATI SADGATI TO ANY ONE.
For example- if any lowkik person comes to centre, takes a day or few days of course, but does not believe in BKWSU teaching, and leaves, then we will not believe that he had taken paalanaa for 10 years. We will say- just a message has been given to him
this question can always be asked to PBKs. - Why the Chariot of PBKs could not recognize typing mistakes in Murlis. Accusing BKWSU for cutting Murlis does not give a gate to escape for PBKs from this question (great mistake). Is it not a like saying lie to escape from this question?
In audio tape mu. Baba has told
"AAGE CHALKAR YAHA KE KAYDE ITNE KADE HO JAYENGE JO KOI VIKARI AUR 2nd 3rd CLASS KOI PAIR BHI NAHE RAKH SAKENEGE, Abi to vikari aur bandar buddhi bahut aa jate hai,Brahmani bhi bina puche aise ko le aati hai, waise AISO KO YAHA LANE KA KOI KAYDA NAHE HAI, AAGE TO KOI AISE AA BHI NAHE SAKENGE"
There is no centers where BKs are following shreemat and you say the are are getting palna, nice!
Shankar = Shiv (need not be Veerendra dixit)
moon = Brahma Baba. Very simple.
Its Mean the people who has mixed and say shiv Shankar are same, they are right?
Moon is brahma, its right!
But in bhagwad Gita its told, FIRSTLY I HAVE GIVEN THIS KNOWLEDGE TO SUN, THEN WHO IS SUN OR GYAAN SURYA BAAP?
See the meaning of haajir naajir from av point-

AM 29-3-81 [with pandav):- Jo sadaa combined roop may rahte hain, uskey aage BapDada Sakar may jaise sarv sambandhon se saamney hote hain. Jitni lagan hogi, utni jaldi BapDada sammney hoga. Yah nahin, niraakaar hai, aakaar hai, baatein kaise karey. Jo aapas may bhi baatein karne time lagtaa hai, dhoondhenge. Yahaan ton dhoondhne va time ki bhi zaroorath nahin. Jahaan bulaavo, vahaan haajir. Isliye kahte hain haajiraa hajoor. Toh aisey anubhav hota hai? Abhi toh din pratidin aisey dekhenge ki jaise practical may anubhav kiyaa ki aaj BapDada aaye, saamney aaye, haath pakdaa, buddhi se nahin, aankhon se dekhenge anubhav hoga. Lekin ismey sirf ek Baap doosraa na koyi- yah path pakkaa ho. Phir toh jaise parchaahyi ghoomti hai, aisey BapDada aankhon se hath/huth nahin saktey. -40- [Yaad, Sakar-niraakaar, haajiraa hajoor]
Whatever you have written that is the saying of LAST MOMENT, for this stage its been told in mu.
"Jo dekhe , jo sune wo kahega mera baap aa gaya, yah hai baap ki prtyakshta ka adhar"
But the above Avyakt Vani mean is not that whatever you are explaining.
They are indicating towards the Sakar personality.
Just read again,
Av
Pahle gyaan aata hai fir GYAAN DATA AATA HAI
Av
Mukhya shakti hai PARKHNE KI SHAKTI, Pahle BAAP KO PARKHENGE...,PARAKHNE KI SHAKTI SE TUMNE BAAP KO JANA HAI
Av
Sakari sharasti par Sakari netro dwara DONO BAAP KO DEKHNA YAH BRAHMAN JEEVAN KA SARVSHRETA BHAGYA Hai, aisa bhagya poore kalp me prapt nhe hoga.
Your statement can not fit for these point,
These points are saying that FIRST KNOWLEDGE COME, THEN AFTER THE KNOWLEDGE GIVER(GYAAN DATA), YOU WILL CHECK THAT GYAAN DATA, after that you'll recognize the Father, and you can see him through these PHYSICAL EYES,
So dear again you manmat is crossing the shreemat.

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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by mbbhat » 21 Aug 2012

These points are saying that FIRST KNOWLEDGE COME, THEN AFTER The Knowledge GIVER(GYAAN DATA),
Yes, first knowledge comes in our mind/intellect. then only God sits in our intellect (then only we realize god).

First knowledge is flowing through out the world. The revelation of Father happens in the end.

By taking just a few Murli points and trying to prove does not make one right. If PBKs wish to prove that what they say is correct, then they should be able to explain each and every Murli points. the moment if I or anyone point holes in that, it is proved that it is wrong.

Now, PBKs may say- even BKs cannot explain all the Murli points.... But BKs are not bothered about such silly points of knowledge which is lie tail of an elephant. Half knowledge is always dangerous. so- if you wish to explain, explain the knowledge fully or explain each and every Murli point.

Else, it is not an acceptable thing.
So dear again you manmat is crossing the shreemat.
The ready made statements from PBKs . Good, carry on.

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arjun
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Re: Presence of ShivBaba

Post by arjun » 21 Aug 2012

silly points of knowledge which is lie tail of an elephant.
That's called ego and u hv proved once again that you think yourself to be greater than Shiva. Good.

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