"Om Mandli", a true and authenticated story 1940

To discuss the BK and PBK versions of the factual Yagya history from the beginning.
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Roy
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Re: "Om Mandli", a true and authenticated story 1940

Post by Roy » 14 Oct 2012

fluffy bunny wrote:I am sorry, it was not clear if you had read the lot or just quotes from it. There's a lot more material in there, don't you think?
I haven't read every word yet, but i scanned through it and read some of if it quite thoroughly, to pick up the general tone and gist of what was being presented in it. It was very clear in its presentation of Dada Lekhraj's alleged behaviour; and although i do not defend this behaviour if what is reported is absolutely true; but i also am not shocked by it, or feel the need to defend it. Who knows how i may have behaved in a similar situation... the temptations must have been enormous! So i do not reject the claims made in the document as having no grounds at all; it's just that i would like to hear an honest account from some BKs who were there and witnessed these things, so that a complete picture of this situation can be created for everyone to see, and draw their own conclusions from. As it stands, we have the BK fairy story, and some powerful claims by disgruntled people of the Sindh community, whose lives were being turned upside down by Om Mandali. So as i say, although i cannot say their testimonies have no basis in truth; there is a vested interest in making Dada Lekhraj look bad, through either telling the truth, or possibly manipulating the truth to suit their own agenda... So distortion of the facts on their side, is not out of the question either.
fluffy bunny wrote:What I am getting from it all is how much the BKs have been indebted to 'external' influences for the evolution of their religion. I don't know about the PBK Sevak Ram story yet. We have no real idea yet about what influence he, Piyu and the other mediums had. Whereas the BKs have worked hard to establish the idea that all it all came from within them, e.g. the purity and morality etc, the impression I get from these original documents is that it largely came from outside. That is to say, they *had* to adopt the principles and become better in order to appease outside critics ... just as they still do.
That is an interesting point of view, and i can see why you have come to that conclusion. If what is being presented in these testimonies is absolutely accurate, there may indeed be some truth in what you say; because there is no way the behaviour reported in the document, would be allowed to continue in Indian society.
fluffy bunny wrote:In particularly, the representation of Lekhraj Kirpalani's critique on marriages and male-female relationships etc. It seems he was more for "free love" in the hippie sense of the word.
Yes it does, if it is what he actually said. The truth is, it is clear that Dada Lekhraj and his followers believed he was God, and they were all getting visions that appeared to them to be saying this, although in reality they weren't. But because they were all convinced of this, Dada Lekhraj would have been in a very intoxicated and egotistical state of being, and one's ego and lustful sanskars, could easily lead one into doing some pretty "out there" things imo. So this is why i do not throw these allegations out completely, before i hopefully get to hear the truth from the BKs about this matter. If they corroborate these allegations, then we have the absolute truth at last.
fluffy bunny wrote:Now, I am not a reactionary or conservative Hindu and so I am not shocked by the idea of free love and affection. I think India became a bit of a mess in this corner, particularly since the influence of the Victorian British. However, as a cause for the Bhaibund's reaction against him ... it is entirely the opposite to that claimed by the BKWSU. It was the Bhaibund who were being "pure" and moral, and Lekhraj Kirpalani who was being "impure" and immoral.
This is what the document presents to us, but nothing is as black and white as that imo. My feeling is that the truth lies somewhere in the middle in this.
fluffy bunny wrote:How many BKs do you think will ask, "could this all be true and how much else have we not been told/do we not know?". Or do you think they will just a) dismiss it as "anti-party", or b) just say as you do, "everything according to Drama" and accept it?
First of all, how many BKs are even interested at all in reading this. Most are Bhakti souls who worship the Dadis... they feel no need to question their gurus, or read documents presented by anti-BK parties. They will just see you and others like you as a lost souls trying to destroy their religion. However, it has been presented on facebook that somewhere around 200 souls have left the BKWSU as a result of this document. I cannot say that pleases me, but at least it is making some souls think about the authenticity of their spiritual leaders.

I think you have my opinion down slightly wrong though fluffy Bhai. I do believe in drama, and that it plays out accurately and identically every 5000 years... but i don't believe in passivity, as we do have the ability to think and analyse and form opinions, and make decisions based upon them. I made the decision to move away from my affiliation with the BKWSU, when i discovered the AIVV; but not without much thought and research. I don't say it was because drama willed it, i willed it... but i also believe i did exactly the same thing 5000 years ago, so these actions were predestined to become a reality. This is why ShivBaba has been able to talk about things going on in the Brahmin Yagya in the Sakar Murlis, years before they have actually occured... He can see the three aspects of time. When i speak about things coming out at the correct time, this is based on faith from my studies, and that everything has its time and place. But as i have also said - it still needs pro-active souls like yourself and the PBKs who are persuing the truth of this matter, to play their parts in this. The drama is about action and reaction; and so these actions have to be undertaken, in order to create the reaction, of the truth being revealed. But i do believe there is an innate law in life; that is, the Law of Karma, and the overall balance inherent in the drama; that the truth always emerges at some point... I have witnessed this in my own life, and feel that i am on pretty solid ground in believing this.
fluffy bunny wrote:I'll be honest with you ... given what is at stake for a believer, I deeply disappointed with BKs as a whole regarding this entire issue (by which I mean getting to documenting to the real story of the Yugya). I would have thought for a believer it was even more interesting and exciting than for a critic or a skeptic.
I can only speak for myself, but i find it fascinating. I also know there are PBK souls who have devoted themselves to find the full truth in this matter, for which they have my utmost respect and gratitude. The reason i say what i do about having faith in the truth emerging; is because i am aware of your own impatience with the BKs in this matter; and want to assure you, that i believe it will all come out in the wash; but at the time when it will have the most impact for all Brahmins.
fluffy bunny wrote:The impression I am left with is that the majority of BKs are just takers prepared to let other people do all the work (and a minority are just manipulators keeping them entertained in order to live off them).
I am not sure how many BKs really care about this issue... they appear to be mostly under the control of the Dadis. I have revealed many Murli points to them on facebook, that state that their Dadis are human gurus, creating Ravanraj in this Confluence Age, who are leading them into degradation, and they don't even bat an eyelid. They are mainly worshippers, not thinkers. They don't pay any attention to the words of their own God, so why would they listen to others who claims their gurus are corrupt!?

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Re: "Om Mandli", a true and authenticated story 1940

Post by fluffy bunny » 17 Oct 2012

Has Virendra Dev Dixit seen this book yet? Has he made any response or offered any observations?

How you describe the BKs is saddening but true. To that I have to add a class of Westerners who are willing to "adjust" the BKWSU and Knowledge as they put on their makeup, changing it cosmetically to make themselves look better. All the emphasis is on the outer and how it looks.

Like yourself, I find this fascinating, time to roll up one's sleeves and get down to work. I don't know what you think but I have concluded it is a waste of time confronting or addressing this with the BKWSU. All I imagine one would get is disrespected back ... an air of superior contempt and patronising, leading to frustrating and final irritation with you if you persisted.

For me, when the BKs say "understand", they mean "conform" to what we tell you and don't question us, don't challenge us.

They are living in a mass delusion peddled and guided for them by the main Dadis and their inner circle supporters.

If we remember that Janki Kripalani was only 13 in 1938 (7 years old when Lekhraj Kirpalani first started), 15 when this happened, and then left to get married for a few years, how much would even she know? Even she is second hand, second division.

Do we know when she got married, or what age people married their daughters at this time? When did she come back to the yugya?

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Re: "Om Mandli", a true and authenticated story 1940

Post by Roy » 17 Oct 2012

fluffy bunny wrote:Has Virendra Dev Dixit seen this book yet? Has he made any response or offered any observations?
Good question... i think he is most likely aware of it. However, I am not sure he would comment on it at this time, as i don't feel the timing is right... but this is just a personal opinion.
fluffy bunny wrote:How you describe the BKs is saddening but true. To that I have to add a class of Westerners who are willing to "adjust" the BKWSU and Knowledge as they put on their makeup, changing it cosmetically to make themselves look better. All the emphasis is on the outer and how it looks.
So true and so badly wrong!
fluffy bunny wrote:Like yourself, I find this fascinating, time to roll up one's sleeves and get down to work. I don't know what you think but I have concluded it is a waste of time confronting or addressing this with the BKWSU. All I imagine one would get is disrespected back ... an air of superior contempt and patronising, leading to frustrating and final irritation with you if you persisted.
I think simply making this information available for all to see on the internet is the way to continue for now... the people who are supposed to see it and benefit will do so, and will pass the word on. You can only do so much. It's also good to know how much this must irritate the BK leadership, even if you know it won't actually change their attitudes.
fluffy bunny wrote:For me, when the BKs say "understand", they mean "conform" to what we tell you and don't question us, don't challenge us... They are living in a mass delusion peddled and guided for them by the main Dadis and their inner circle supporters.
That's an absolute given!
fluffy bunny wrote:If we remember that Janki Kripalani was only 13 in 1938 (7 years old when Lekhraj Kirpalani first started), 15 when this happened, and then left to get married for a few years, how much would even she know? Even she is second hand, second division... Do we know when she got married, or what age people married their daughters at this time? When did she come back to the yugya?
Interesting questions for which i have no answers at this time.

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Re: "Om Mandli", a true and authenticated story 1940

Post by Roy » 17 Oct 2012

Dear fluffy Bhai

Am i correct in believing that you have taken something i said on this matter, to imply that the saddhu mentioned in this document, is the Sevak Ram believed to be Prajapita-Ram by the PBKs? If this is the case, that was not my intention, as i have no opinion about the saddhu at all; and definately don't think he was the Sevak Ram who Father Shiv entered in 1936/7.

I just wanted to clarify my position on this matter.

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Re: "Om Mandli", a true and authenticated story 1940

Post by fluffy bunny » 18 Oct 2012

Roy wrote:... i have no opinion about the saddhu at all; and definately don't think he was the Sevak Ram who Father Shiv entered in 1936/7.
I cannot remember now ... but I have encountered other PBKs who interpret the "Saddhu from Bengal" as being Sevak Ram/Virendra Dev Dixit's previous incarnation and so I guess it is quite a common or older concept within the AIVV that perhaps has to be questioned now.

Perhaps other PBKs can clarify?

This business partner states quite clearly he witnessed the event and the removal of the money. He would have good knowledge of the rest of the business and the other manager who is now claimed to be the earlier incarnation of Virendra Dev Dixit.

On this occasion, there would be no reason for him to be dishonest or benefit in anyway from misleading the tribunal. Therefore, I think we have to accept his witness as being reliable.

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Re: "Om Mandli", a true and authenticated story 1940

Post by Roy » 18 Oct 2012

fluffy bunny wrote:On this occasion, there would be no reason for him to be dishonest or benefit in anyway from misleading the tribunal. Therefore, I think we have to accept his witness as being reliable.
I do not dismiss the viewpoint that the partner's testimony is factual... but i wasn't aware of the opinion until now, that the saddhu may have been Sevak Ram(Prajapita-Ram).

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Re: "Om Mandli", a true and authenticated story 1940

Post by arjun » 18 Oct 2012

Roy Bhai, Om Shanti. fluffy-bunny's assumption that PBKs think the sadhu to be sevakram stems perhaps from an interview of an old BK (from Om Mandali times) who was in fact in anti-om mandali committee at that time, which I had quoted on this forum or brahmakumaris.info. That interview was published by BKWSU in the Gyanamrit Magazine in Hindi. That BK named Khushiram Chugani had also mentioned that they used to fear the topics of purity and the magical surma (applied on the eyelids) of the Bengali guru of Dada Lekhraj.
kahanee-1.jpg
kahanee-2.jpg

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Re: "Om Mandli", a true and authenticated story 1940

Post by Roy » 18 Oct 2012

Om Shanti Arjun Bhai... thank you for the information!

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Re: "Om Mandli", a true and authenticated story 1940

Post by fluffy bunny » 18 Oct 2012

arjun wrote:Roy Bhai, Om Shanti. fluffy-bunny's assumption that PBKs think the sadhu to be sevakram stems perhaps from an interview of an old BK (from Om Mandali times) who was in fact in anti-om mandali committee at that time ...
I did write *some* PBKs not "all PBK" nor the official opinion (which I do not know). I think it also arose in the work of the East European PBK who was publishing many websites in English. Has Virendra Dev Dixit made any comment on this specific issue since this finding?

Does this BK article suggest that the Saddhu came to Hyderabad or Karachi to visit Lekhraj Kirpalani?

The use of surma (kohl) by men is a Punjabi traditional ... I know what it might be for in a lokik environment but what is the significance of it in the case of the Om Mandli and the Saddhu? The issue of them wearing it comes up in the questioning of Om Radhe (called antimony). Is there such a thing as "magic" surma in India?

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Re: "Om Mandli", a true and authenticated story 1940

Post by button slammer » 19 Oct 2012

fluffy bunny wrote: Has Veerendra Dev Dixit made any comment on this specific issue since this finding?
No-one is particularly interested in the opinions of Virendra Dev Dixit, however; ShivBaba is constantly kept abreast of any relevant discoveries relating to the Yagya. To the best of my knowledge Srimat was not to disclose the book as it would only serve a destructive function in the hands of atheists. Establishment, Destruction, Sustenance in that order. The book is not official as it has no court stamp anywhere, nor does it relate to the real dispute between the original Om Mandli and the Anti-Party.
It's primarily a power struggle between the local Panchayat, British Government/Judicial System, and the wile nature of Dada Lekraj. Some dates in the book can be cross referenced with other material from that time. In terms of Gyan the publication is worthless, for BK haters/atheists it is a gold mine.
Comments on the activities of Dada Lekraj/Brahma Baba spoken by Shiv Baba below.

VCD No. 1404, Audio Cassette No. 1890,
Dated 16.12.2010, at Coimbatore Part 2 (Tamil Nadu).
Clarification of Murli dated 27.12.1968 (for PBKs)
They show the head of a donkey over Ravan. They show it, don’t they? What does it mean? Why do they show the head of a donkey over the head of Ravan? (Someone said something.) No. The donkey carries the load. So, they have shown this as a sign of the one who carries the load. So, a thought arose: there is no ‘kingship’ (rajaayi) in this kingdom of Ravan; it is a ‘donkeyship’ (gadhaayi). If it is the community of Ravan, as the king so all the subjects have a donkey like intellect. Is the donkey wild or urban (domestic)? What is it? It is wild. It rolls about again and again in soil and makes the clothes of the dhobi (washer man) dirty.
The Father also says, what were you [before] and what is your stage now? What does it mean? The donkey rolls about in soil again and again and makes the clothes of the dhobi dirty? Does Baba narrate the limited things or the unlimited things? (Students: the unlimited things.) So, what are the unlimited things? Who is the donkey? Who is the dhobi? What are the clothes? [It is] the clothes in the form of body. Then, who is the dhobi? Shiva Baba is the Dhobi. Then who is the donkey on whom the clothes... the one who carries the clothes? (Someone said something.) How? Why did you mention the name of Brahma Baba? (Student: He was body conscious too.) The Father also says, what were you [before] and what is your stage now? You have been dirtied by the urine [of lust].
The clothes which are put on the donkey... how are those clothes? They are dirty clothes. The donkey rolls about in soil again and again. What kind of soil? The donkey rolls about in the soil of body consciousness. If the donkey rolls about in the soil of body consciousness.... well, it is not about a donkey, an animal. Which donkey is it? Arey, is it a human donkey or a donkey, an animal? It is indeed a human [donkey], isn’t it? It is not a donkey, an animal. So, if it rolls about in the soil of body consciousness, what will be the result? (Student: the status will be destroyed.) Is the status destroyed? Arey! Arey, if the donkey rolls about in the soil of body consciousness, if it rolls about in soil, body consciousness itself is the soil, if the donkey rolls about in the body, what will be the result? (Someone said something.)
In the soil...? (Student: ... the five vices.) (Baba is laughing) when the human being rolls about in the soil of body consciousness, does he become dirty or does he remain clean? (Students: He becomes dirty.) By what does he become dirty? (Student: vicious.) He becomes vicious, doesn’t he? So does the power fall, does the power reduce or does it remain amogh (constant)? The power reduces. So, when the power reduces, the cloth like body will be spoiled. They become the ones dirtied by the urine [of lust]. You have become the one of the Ravan community, a mulish person. The Father sits and explains these things. All the children used to go on the lap of [Brahma] Baba; the virgins also used to go, the mothers also used to go. Baba used to take them on the lap and shake and swing them a lot like this. So, what will be the result? What will be the result?
In the pictures or in the scriptures or in any praise, is Brahma shown as amoghviirya (the one whose vigour is not drained) or is Shankar shown [as amoghviirya]? (Students: they haveshown Shankar.) Why didn’t they show Brahma? (Student: Brahma has attachment for the children.) He indeed has attachment for the children. His part is certainly of the mother, but which is the body? Is the body of a male or a female? (Student: It is of a male.) So, will there be a leakage or not? (Someone said: it will.) So, he was dirtied by the urine [of lust], wasn’t he? The Father sits and explains this. Only the one who plays the role of the Father can explain these things, no one else can even explain it.
As such, this Dada also understands this thing. (Baba is laughing) How? How does he understand it? How does he understand this thing? Will he himself know his inner state or will someone else know it? (Student: The other will know it.) Will the other know it? Won’t he himself know it? He himself also knows: yes, it used to happen like this, doesn’t he? This Dada understands as well as you children understand. What? What do you understand? That you are dirtied by the urine [of lust] by rolling about in the soil of body consciousness. This capital is being established, all kinds [of souls] are needed in it. Certainly, they will attain a status number wise (according to the spiritual effort). What? Those who become firm Raja yogi ... will they become number wise? They will become number wise.
If they become Raja yogi, what will be the sign of Raja Yoga? They will also become indriyajiit (conqueror of the organs) number wise (according to their capacity). Won’t they gain victory over the organs? Will they [gain victory] or not? (Students: they will.) So, when they gain victory over the organs, will the organs continue to leak or has Baba mentioned in the Murli that in the future, you children... you will stop having discharges. So, will you children stop having discharges or will this one and his followers stop having discharges? (Students: we children.) You children will stop [having discharges]. Why? Because, this one does not recognise the Father at all. [So,] how will he remember [Him]? And you? You have a true recognition of the Father, so you will certainly obtain a status number wise (according to the spiritual effort).

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Re: "Om Mandli", a true and authenticated story 1940

Post by fluffy bunny » 19 Oct 2012

button slammer wrote:The book is not official as it has no court stamp anywhere, nor does it relate to the real dispute between the original Om Mandli and the Anti-Party.
Apart from the brief mention of the women sitting on Lekhraj Kirpalani's lap, I cannot see that there is much of relevance in the quote you offer us ... unless it is codified and suggesting some element of lustfulness in Lekhraj Kirpalani's actions. You would have to explain for the sake of the less enlightened of us.

As to the "real dispute between the original Om Mandli and the Anti-Party", you would have to enlighten me as to who the parties were and what it was about (and, as ever, until the most complete collection of Murlis and Decrees are freely available to all, the rest of us are are handicapped at not having the original information to refer to).

As to the comment "the book is not official", I find that an extremely strange comment. "Official" to whom ... the Yugya or the British? What on earth does that mean? Are you suggesting that if the 1930s British Government had "stamped it", it would therefore be "true"? You know perfectly well how ridiculous a statement that would appear.

It is a copy of a series of affidavits (personal witness statements sworn and signed in front of an official, e.g. a magistrate) and newspaper articles. An affidavits is a legal document and carries more weight than just gossip. The book contains other fragments of the truth we have not seen so clearly and it gives us another view into the going on and character of the early days ... one not coloured by the self-interest (ego) of the Brahma Kumaris.

At best, your statement ... which I reflects Virendra Dev Dixit's position (as I am getting a feel for how he works) ... is really only deflection which puts the onus back onto researchers to find other evidence (... which will then too be deflected for some other reason). The problem being, that there was no court case (for all a court case would prove), there was only a tribunal. A sort of official review. The court chose to avoid getting into any moral judgment and did not wish to take sides, it was merely interested in what to do to keep the peace.

Surely you would be sorely mistaken if you believed court proceedings found "truth" anyway? How many examples of that could we show!?!
  • Can we depend on it being a faithful copy of the signed affidavits? I don't see why not.
    Can we depend on the affidavits being 100% accurate? Probably not, as they were personal witness statements rather than empirical measurements.
    Can we expect a fairly high degree of truth? Probably so, due to the importance, formality and high public profile of the events at the time. The Bhaibund could not risk being false or erroneous.
    It may not give us all the answers, but it tells us where to ask questions.

    In short, along with the earlier released documents, it is one of the best leads we have had so far in finding out the truth of things.
BTW, I can accept being cast in the role of an "atheist" without being offended, if that is what you are saying to me (... but who knows how the cookie will crumble as the Drama plays out).

For me, hard, external evidence and witnesses are worth 10 times than mystical divinations from the Murlis, particularly because they too have been shown at times to be wrong, or change over time. Unfortunately, in that aspect Virendra Dev Dixit has also let himself down or is yet to prove himself.

And, for me, the most interesting aspect is not the salacious details of Lekhraj Kirpalani love life ... but the very definite information about this Saddhu character.

Why would Lekhraj Kirpalani's 'business partner' "codify" such an event and reference ... if according to the Advance Knowledge ... the Saddhu of Bengal or claimed 'spiritual partner' (Virendra Dev Dixit's allegedly previous incarnation) was just another shop manager/employee?

I am approaching this matter properly, not as an "anti-party". It's fair and reasonable to ask whether it is surprising or not that Virendra Dev Dixit might became evasive, if information arose that threatened the validity of his self-made claims and spiritual authority?

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Re: "Om Mandli", a true and authenticated story 1940

Post by Roy » 19 Oct 2012

fluffy bunny wrote:Apart from the brief mention of the women sitting on Lekhraj Kirpalani's lap, I cannot see that there is much of relevance in the quote you offer us ... unless it is codified and suggesting some element of lustfulness in Lekhraj Kirpalani's actions. You would have to explain for the sake of the less enlightened of us.
The Murli passage presented by Button Bhai, indicates that Dada Lekhraj Brahma Baba, was definately a lustful body conscious person(like all of us males, especially); and therefore for me at least, indicates that the claims made in the document, do have at least some foundation in truth. Exactly what went on at this time, is not yet entirely clear... but it is obvious that the events were not in keeping with the teachings of the BKIVV or AIVV we know today. This sort of activity, even if it goes no further, definately fuels the lust in a body conscious person; and this is why touching and embracing are not encouraged in the Brahmin Yagya today.
fluffy bunny wrote:As to the "real dispute between the original Om Mandli and the Anti-Party", you would have to enlighten me as to who the parties were and what it was about (and, as ever, until the most complete collection of Murlis and Decrees are freely available to all, the rest of us are are handicapped at not having the original information to refer to).
I think what Button Bhai is referring to here, is the dispute between Sevak Ram(Prajapita-Ram), and Dada Lekhraj Brahma Baba and his devotees, who Sevak Ram saw as not being the true souls who should be allowed into the Yagya... I am talking about the type of souls who have run the BKIVV since Brahma Baba's death... the souls who do not follow Shrimat, and have turned the BKIVV into the sham it is today.

"People of other religions came (i.e. Vidharmis or opposing souls, were allowed into the Yagya, by the soft accomodating mother Dada Lekhraj). So look, the partition of India took place before the eyes of the Father(Prajapita-Ram, who saw this happening, and confronted Dada Lekhraj about it, but the practise continued. This process was mirrored in the broad drama, by the partition that took place in India)." [Mu 30.09.71]

"You have to become Shakti Swarup (Personification of Power) for the Vidharmis(those souls who accept practices which are opposite to that taught by ShivBaba). Vidharmis(leftist opposing souls, not that interested in Shrimat, who prefer the love of the lap of the sweet mother, Brahma Baba) will also become Brahmins." [Mu 21.07.69]

"You have to attain a blazing form like Shankar(Prajapita-Ram's powerful incorporeal form at the end) and end the flame of destruction, which had been ignited(at the beginning of the Yagya - Prajapita-Ram opposed the admission of the Vidharmis into the Yagya, but failed at this time - Father Shiv was playing the role of Rudra, through Sevak Ram at this time)." [Av 03.02.74]

"Baba has said that He creates the sacrificial fire of the knowledge of Rudra, and that the devilish community(the opposing BKs-Vidharmis, allowed into the Yagya by Dada Lekhraj) creates obstacles in this. This is ShivBaba’s unlimited sacrificial fire in which human beings change into deities. It is remembered that the flames of destruction emerged from the sacrificial fire of knowledge (in the very beginning of the Yagya)." [Mu 21.02.11]

"When was the flame of destruction ignited? From the beginning of Yagya itself the flame of destruction was ignited from the Yagya Khund along with the flame of establishment. Who were instrumental for this? Brahma(Baba Krishna), Father(of Humanity-Prajapita-Ram) and Brahmin children(leftist opposing Vidharmis) also became instrumental in igniting this flame of destruction.” [Av 03.02.74]

fluffy bunny wrote:At best, your statement ... which I reflects Virendra Dev Dixit's position (as I am getting a feel for how he works) ... is really only deflection which puts the onus back onto researchers to find other evidence (... which will then too be deflected for some other reason). The problem being, that there was no court case (for all a court case would prove), there was only a tribunal. A sort of official review. The court chose to avoid getting into any moral judgment and did not wish to take sides, it was merely interested in what to do to keep the peace.
My take on this, is that this this dispute, in terms of the whole picture is only a side scene... yes it's important in that is reveals the character of the souls who run the BKIVV, who wish to keep these things hidden, and have fabricated a fairy story to replace it... But the real significant dispute is between Sevak Ram(Prajapita-Ram), Dada Lekhraj Brahma Baba, and the devotees of Brahma Baba... this is the fight between the Kauravas and the Pandavas of the Mahabharata. But this truth has not been fully uncovered yet... the part of Sevak Ram(Prajapita-Ram) at the beginning of the Yagya has not yet been proven, and the dispute that went on between him and Brahma Baba... This is the significant truth that needs to be researched further, and revealed at the correct time. This is the truth that will be a big part of the revelation of Father, at the end. The document we are referring to here in this thread has significance, but it is overshadowing the much more important dispute that was going on inside the Yagya itself. If this is what Button Bhai is referring to, i totally agree with him.

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Re: "Om Mandli", a true and authenticated story 1940

Post by fluffy bunny » 19 Oct 2012

Ah, yes, I have heard of that particular theory before and I find it possible ... reasonable ... understandable. I also look forward very much to seeing more evidence of it, and this individual or individuals. I wish the BKs would hurry up and tell the truth. I thought he might refer to something else.

What was your own response when you first read it Buttonslammer?

What you are saying Roy is that Lekhraj Kirpalani allowed the Yugya to be over run and taken over by his morally and intellectually dubious sycophants ... primarily because he enjoyed getting into the bath or having slumber parties with them, and having them worship him. In short, he liked playing the part of god as we now know he did.

In that sense, I think this document is very valuable because it starts to open the door to discussion about what Lekhraj Kirpalani was really like.

Of course, the BKs will react against it strongly, with denial or accusations as they usually do to truths ... but after that reaction, there will be a re-adjustment.

You cannot build an Age of True on lies.

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Re: "Om Mandli", a true and authenticated story 1940

Post by Roy » 19 Oct 2012

fluffy bunny wrote:What you are saying Roy is that Lekhraj Kirpalani allowed the Yugya to be over run and taken over by his morally and intellectually dubious sycophants ... primarily because he enjoyed getting into the bath or having slumber parties with them, and having them worship him. In short, he liked playing the part of god as we now know he did.
I think that may be a fair assessment of what went down, yes!
fluffy bunny wrote:In that sense, I think this document is very valuable because it starts to open the door to discussion about what Lekhraj Kirpalani was really like.
I feel that is true also, and reveals why Dada Lekhraj Brahma Baba is not God's permanent Chariot... the one through whom God is revealed at the end.
fluffy bunny wrote:Of course, the BKs will react against it strongly, with denial or accusations as they usually do to truths ... but after that reaction, there will be a re-adjustment.
There will be some casualties, but for the most part i feel you are right.
fluffy bunny wrote:You cannot build an Age of True on lies.
Absolutely... the whole truth has to emerge at some point.

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Re: "Om Mandli", a true and authenticated story 1940

Post by Larena » 04 Jan 2013

It's been said "Brahma Baba's Sister was wife of Sevak Ram". According to the Om Mandali list, Lekhraj Kirpalani's Sister name is Hakki Kismatrai Hathirmani Age 56. No apparent mention of her husband.
The husband of Lekhraj's sister was: Kismatram Hathiramani. He was a merchant. He run his own business independently from Lekhraj Kripalani - he imported goods from Japan to India.

I found this in Calcutta and got the same information from an old Sadhu. When I received the list of Om Mandali members, it confirmem the name Hakki Kismatrai Hathiramani.

PBKs teach that Lekhraj's sister was a wife of Lekhraj's partner - Sevakram and that she played the role of the one who directly explains the meaning of visions to Lekhraj. They also teach that Sevakram had two wifes at the same time - one was Lekhraj' sister and another one was Kamla DD in her preveiour life. They were two mothers of the begining.

I never received any answer from Virendra Dev Dixit about this difference. I asked him about it three or four times and received the answer "Baba always says the truth". This was the final nail in my coffin in PBKs.

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