Re: Meaning of Avaykt Bap-Dada.

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Re: Meaning of Avaykt Bap-Dada.

Post by shivsena » 30 Dec 2012

The Supreme Soul Shiv performs the task of explaining The Knowledge.

The soul of Ram remains in remembrance, makes spiritual efforts, gives clarification based on its experiences and churning power sometimes (during discussions) and also tries to clear its karmic accounts with different souls.

The soul of Krishna reads the Murlis, studies through the body of Shankar and also clears his karmic accounts with several BKs and PBKs
So according to you, One subtle brahma(Krishna) is incomplete and is a student, but is free to fly at will to narrate avaykt Vanis in mt abu...one subtle brahma(Ram) is complete from 1976 and is continously in churning stage but cannot move out of his own body...and finally it is ShivBap who is attached to the body and whatever comes out of the mouth of -Virendra Dev Dixit's body are ShivBap's words....a great theory indeed...i now wonder how i believed this for more than 10 years.

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Re: Meaning of Avaykt Bap-Dada.

Post by arjun » 30 Dec 2012

U r free 2 hv ur opinion.

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Re: Meaning of Avaykt Bap-Dada.

Post by mbbhat » 30 Dec 2012

arjun soul wrote:- BKs think of subtle Brahma as the soul of Dada Lekhraj with subtle body. This subtle Brahma is definitely different from the soul of Ram. But this subtle Brahma is not the complete Brahma that is referred in the Murlis when compared to the corporeal Brahma (Dada Lekhraj when he was alive). The subtle complete Brahma is Prajapita Brahma who lives in the world of subtle thinking and churning.
1)If PBKs believe subtle complete brahma is Virendra Dev dixit, then who is that one who dozes while VD is giving drushti? [Initially, arjun had told that dixit may get tired due to lot of traveling and giving response by email, mobile cals, etc].

Baba says- you will not get tired even if you walk from abu road to mount abu if you are in fully remembrance. (PBKs believe dixit is in continuous remembrance.)

2)Also- Baba says- subtle brahma is complete. So how can there is someone subtle brahma who is incomplete?

And do PBKs believe Mr. dixit is really complete? If yes, since when - after 1969 or 1976?

Murli says- subtle brahma is farista/angel. So is Mr, dixit angel after that year?

3)And- if the subtle complete Brahma is not DL after 1969, why should Murli point say-this only, when becomes complete will shed his body and become angel.


Murli point for the above.

SM 7-4-76(2):- Koyi2 toh Brahma ki baath may bhi moonjhte hain. BRAHMA KOYI DO(=2) NAHIN HAIN. YAHI BRAHMA SO SAMPOORN BANEGAA. YAH VYAKT, VAH HAI Avyakt. INKI ATMA YAHAAN HEE HAI. Avyakt BAN JAAVEGI TOH PHIR YAH HEE ATMA VAHAAN RAHEGI. SAMPOORN FARSITAA BAN JAATI HAI. Atma jo farista ban jati hai, unkaa saakshaatkaar hota hai. Tum bhi fariste bante ho na. Yahaan pure ban sweet home may jaanaa hai. -145-


= ... There are no two brahmas. This is vyakt. That is Avyakt. The soul of this is here only. When this becomes Avyakt, then the same soul will be there. It becomes complete angel. When a souls becomes complete, its vision happens.....


Even today vision of BBaba happens. but does that of dixit happen?

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Re: Meaning of Avaykt Bap-Dada.

Post by mbbhat » 30 Dec 2012

4) If complete subtle brahma is VDixit, then why should the Murli point say- i do not enter in complete subtle brahma?

SM 3-11-87(1):- Parmatma ke liye hee gaayan hai- “Hey patit paavan,...” Aate bhi hain patit duniyaa aur patit shareer may. Patit shreer kaa naam hai PPB. Ismey pravesh kar kahte hain, main bahut janmon ke anth_vaaley saadhaaran manushy may pravesh kartaa hun. SOOKSHMVATANVAASI SAMPOORN BRAHMA MAY NAHEEN AATE HAIN. Khud kahte hain inkey bahut janmon ke anth ke janm may aataa hun. BAHUT JANM LETE HEE HAIN R

= .... I do not enter in subtle complete brahma. ...

So- then how can ShivBaba enter in dixit?
----
Just for interest:-

5)If dixit is complete, then why he could not he rectify the typing errors in Murlis and is following them blindly for so many years? why he cannot say- about Yagya history of the beginning (they are interested in and dependent on such things)?

6)Whenever shiv speaks through dixit to give clarification, there would be even DL in body of dixit, is it not? (at least to read Murli). So- without DL, shiv is useless/handicapped to PBKs.

Now, it is as good as Shiv entering (pbk concept of ) incomplete subtle Brahma (DL) also! (for all practical purposes).

So- why do PBKs quote Murli point- "I do not enter in subtle brahma" to BKs to prove their philosophy?

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Re: Meaning of Avaykt Bap-Dada.

Post by Roy » 30 Dec 2012

mbbhat wrote:1)If PBKs believe subtle complete brahma is Virendra Dev dixit, then who is that one who dozes while VD is giving drushti? [Initially, arjun had told that dixit may get tired due to lot of traveling and giving response by email, mobile cals, etc]. Baba says- you will not get tired even if you walk from abu road to mount abu if you are in fully remembrance. (PBKs believe dixit is in continuous remembrance.)
Even Virendra Dev Dixit ji is not in full remembrance... if he had achieved this stage, he would now be complete, karmateet. Virendra Dev Dixit ji is no 1 in remembrance, but even he still has karmic accounts that prevent complete or constant remembrance; and this is why his eyes close during drishti.
mbbhat wrote:Also- Baba says- subtle brahma is complete. So how can there is someone subtle brahma who is incomplete?
Imo, this question is clearly answered in the point i quoted earlier...

"The one who creates (the Brahmin religion) is Supreme Godfather through this Brahma(Baba Krishna, the mother). Baba has also explained that the subtle(world) Brahma(Baba Krishna) cannot be called Prajapita. There are no praja (in the Subtle Regions). So definitely Prajapita would be here (in corporeal form, for the entire duration of the Confluence Age). He(Prajapita) only then (at the end) becomes Avyakt(the subtle angel known as Shankar - but whilst remaining in his corporeal body). That (stage of complete Shankar) is Avyakt(completely subtle like Father Shiv - hence the name Shiv Shankar Bholenath). Definitely vyakt(corporeal Prajapita) is also needed who will become Avyakt (at the end, whilst remaining in the corporeal body). Both (stages - corporeal and subtle) are seen(experienced) now (as he is an effort maker).Prajapita Brahma is here(in coproreal bodily form) as well as in the Subtle Region (as a result of his churning of knowledge and soul conscious efforts). Prajapita should be here (in the corporeal world only - not in the Subtle Regions, or a subtle body). Definitely Prajapita Brahma’s children would also be here (in corporeal form until the end). You can tell all that the (true) Prajapita who is corporeal(an effort maker) himself, will then become subtle(a complete angel called Shankar, at the end - and be known in combination with Godfather Shiv, as Shiv Shankar Bholenath - the One who is revealed in practical living form to the whole world at the end)." [Mu 24.09.73]

How can Virendra Dev Dixit ji be complete... Baba has clearly stated in the Murli, that no-one, not even Brahma Baba Krishna, is complete until the end. Virendra Dev Dixit ji is in a subtle stage because he is making subtle efforts... but as the Murli point states, he fluctuates between corporeal and subtle, because he is not yet complete.

"Now nobody has become a complete flower. That is the Karmateet stage or (complete) soul conscious (or bodiless) stage. That will be achieved only in the end." [Mu 08.10.78]

"Mama(Radhe)-Baba(Krishna) will also go, many other children will also go(leave their physical bodies to serve) in (the) advance(party, via their subtle bodies). It is not that Mama-Baba have attained the complete stage. Complete stage will be attained only at the end. Presently, nobody can call himself complete." [Mu 10.11.88]

mbbhat wrote:Murli says- subtle brahma is farista/angel. So is Mr, dixit angel after that year?
Virendra Dev Dixit ji becomes a complete angel at the end... a king of his physicl body.

"Father had explained that Prajapita Brahma, who is a bodily being(i.e. an effort maker) now... he only becomes subtle(100% incorporeal at the end like Father Shiv)." [Mu 23.01.84]

"When this Prajapita Brahma who is corporeal(an effort maker) now, becomes complete (100% soul conscious at the end), destroys all his sins, then he becomes an angel (a King within his old degraded body)." [Mu 20.01.78]

"Angels mean those who are detached from the physical body, those who always have a body of light. Angels mean kings of the physical body." [Av 05.02.09]

mbbhat wrote:And- if the subtle complete Brahma is not DL after 1969, why should Murli point say-this only, when becomes complete will shed his body and become angel.
Shedding the body shouldn't be taken in the literal sense... this means the complete shedding of the consciousness of the body... the complete bodiless stage, but whilst remaining in the body. How else can Father Shiv be revealed to the world in practical living form, other than through a soul who has himself become bodiless, but whilst still having a body to be able to prove this through.

"Now you remember the living ShivBaba(Father Shiv in His corporel Chariot). Thereafter, when you become worshippers, you will worship stones(non-living images). Now Baba is in living (practical) form, is not it? ShivBaba (the point form) is called Shiva only. Even when He is in this person(Brahma Baba Krishna) He is called ShivBaba. He cannot be given any other name." [Mu 29.02.84]

mbbhat wrote:There are no two brahmas. This is vyakt. That is Avyakt. The soul of this is here only. When this becomes Avyakt, then the same soul will be there. It becomes complete angel. When a souls becomes complete, its vision happens.....
Nobody becomes complete until the end... see Murli points above.

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Re: Meaning of Avaykt Bap-Dada.

Post by mbbhat » 31 Dec 2012

Arjun wrote:- The subtle complete Brahma is Prajapita Brahma who lives in the world of subtle thinking and churning.
Roy wrote:- How can Veerendra Dev Dixit ji be complete... Baba has clearly stated in the Murli, that no-one, not even Brahma Baba Krishna, is complete until the end. Veerendra Dev Dixit ji is in a subtle stage because he is making subtle efforts... but as the Murli point states, he fluctuates between corporeal and subtle, because he is not yet complete.
So- when a Murli point says- Shankar does not take birth, PBKs say as if- there is no fluctuation in him. Or would they like to say- what fluctuation is there in others , but not in Dixit/Shankar?

Have you read what arjun had written ? He says- Prajapita Brahma who is living and doing subtle thinking and churing is subtle complete Brahma.

So- I feel the contradictions.

OK, Arjun soul may come up with his idea. Let us see.

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Re: Meaning of Avaykt Bap-Dada.

Post by arjun » 31 Dec 2012

mbbhat wrote:= ... I do not enter in subtle complete Brahma. ...

So- then how can ShivBaba enter in dixit?
He is complete in the sense that when compared to Brahma Baba (Dada Lekhraj) at the time of the narration of the Sakar Murli that was being narrated before 1969, the personality of Prajapita Brahma to be revealed in future is complete.

He is also complete in the sense that he developed hundred percent faith in ShivBaba, His knowledge as well as his own part and in the part of World Mother and Mother India. But as regards his karmic accounts, he has to clear them till he is revealed in the world as Prajapita Brahma or Shankar. Until then he has to make spiritual efforts and remain in remembrance to clear his karmic accounts. So, please don't jump to conclusions like a child before listening to someone completely.

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Re: Meaning of Avaykt Bap-Dada.

Post by mbbhat » 31 Dec 2012

arjun wrote:So, please don't jump to conclusions like a child before listening to someone completely.
I am just playing with you, because your interpretation can be anything.

So- even if Murli point says- subtle complete Brahma, PBKs can say- Yes, dixit is complete, but not complete.

Good. Not being able to point typing errors in Murlis, a lot of false predictions, not able to interpret lot of Murli points, still depending of Murlis and Avyakt Vanis from BKWSU, they believe Dixit is complete. fine.

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Re: Meaning of Avaykt Bap-Dada.

Post by Roy » 31 Dec 2012

mbbhat wrote:they believe Dixit is complete. fine.
Virendra Dev Dixit ji has complete faith which he achieved in 1976, via his intense studies of the Murlis for 5-6 years, from 1969/70... This is what the destruction Murli points from 1966, and the declaration on the Lakshmi-Narayan picture 1967, were referring to... the destruction of attachment to the old Iron Aged world and its rituals... the end of Bhakti for him alone. Only Father Shiv and knowledge remain in his intellect, from this time forth; and he never enters the the cycle of faith(birth) and doubt(death) as all others(Parvatis) do.

"Now the Sun of Knowledge (Prajapita-Ram aka Shankar) has left the corporeal world (i.e. he begins churning the knowledge in the Murlis, from 1969) and is standing in the subtle avaykt world (i.e. his mind and intellect become subtle, detached from the concerns of the corporeal world)." [Av 16.07.69]

"Two years remain out of 10 years (that ShivBaba spoke of in the Sakar Murli, in 1966, within which destruction will take place)... Soon (within two more years, from 1974) it is the end of the Iron Age (within the mind and intellect of Prajapita-Ram)." [Av 04.02.74]

"When the Iron Age ends (in the intellect of Prajapita-Ram, in 1976, as a result of studying the Murli for 5-6 years, from 1969/70), then Bhakti would also end (for him first of all)... only then will God (Shiva) come and meet (in the form of the Father, in 1976) because He alone gives the fruits of Bhakti (by revealing the deep secrets locked within the Sakar Murlis, that allow the accurate churning of Gyan to commence for the true Brahmins, or PBKs). He (Prajapita-Ram aka Shankar) is called the Sun of Knowledge." [Mu 11.01.08]

"Baba has been to Amarnath as well. Baba saw everything as to how they make the Shivling. They say that Shankar narrated a story to Parvati there. Well what kind of degradation did Parvati undergo that he sat and narrated the story to her? Actually, you all are Parvatis; you pass through the cycle of birth and death(i.e. pass through the cycle of faith and doubt in the Confluence Age)... and you are listening to the story(i.e the Advance Knowledge, narrated through Shankar) to achieve true salvation(liberation from ignorance and doubts).” [Mu 05.09.08]

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Re: Meaning of Avaykt Bap-Dada.

Post by arjun » 31 Dec 2012

I am just playing with you, because your interpretation can be anything.
Keep on playing dear child. :laugh:

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Re: Meaning of Avaykt Bap-Dada.

Post by sita » 28 Apr 2013

In the Murli 27.03.98 it is said:

"They write in the newspapers that so-and-so has become a resident of heaven. So, ask them what do you call heaven? This is hell; and so souls would have to take rebirth in hell. If it were heaven, souls would take rebirth in heaven. If a soul has left hell and gone to heaven, he would have many material comforts there; so why should that soul be invited back here from heaven to be made to eat the food of hell? If you feed a soul with the food of hell, his intellect would become like that. As is the food, so is the mind. In heaven, there will be rivers of ghee flowing, whereas here the food you feed the soul would be prepared with paraffin."

If we take this to apply to Brahma Baba, because they say about him that he has become perfect, can we find some reason for his mental degradation is BKs feeding him Bhog through the body of Gulzar Dadi.

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Re: Meaning of Avaykt Bap-Dada.

Post by shivachild » 02 Sep 2013

shivsena wrote:To all truth-seeking PBKs.

Murli 2-10-97 says: "सुक्ष्म-वतन-वासी तो है संपूर्ण ब्रह्मा ."

"Sukshma-vatan-wasi toh hai sampoorna Brahma."

["The subtle Brahma is sampoorna-complete karmatit Brahma"]

PBKs believe that subtle Brahma is Lekhraj Kirpalani and that he is incomplete Brahma and is doing purusharth through the body of Veerendra Dev Dixit....but the above Sakar Murli point narrated before 1969 clearly says that the subtle Brahma is complete karmatit Brahma...So Who is this Brahma who became complete before Lekhraj Kirpalani left his body in 1969 ???

shivsena.
Dear Shivsena,
Before 18.01.1969 Brahma-Lekhraj Kirpalani-Krishna was not complete.
The only complete soul before 1969 was Om Radhey-Mama-Jagdamba Saraswati.
Imo....this complete Brahma in Subtle Region is Om Radhey-Mama-Jagdamba Saraswati.

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Re: Meaning of Avaykt Bap-Dada.

Post by Roy » 02 Sep 2013

shivachild wrote:Before 18.01.1969 Brahma-Lekhraj Kirpalani-Krishna was not complete. The only complete soul before 1969 was Om Radhey-Mama-Jagdamba Saraswati.
Imo....this complete Brahma in Subtle Region is Om Radhey-Mama-Jagdamba Saraswati.
Imo, these beliefs are challenged by the following Murli points...

"First and foremost Mama(Om Radhe) achieved the best position... she achieved the karmatit stage... she transcended all bodily sorrows (but hadn't completed her studies - i.e. she wasn't complete in knowledge)." [Mu 09.05.66]

"Your Mama has ascended to the Subtle Regions. Her karmic accounts of the physical world ended (but she wasn't complete in knowledge at this time)." [Mu 21.06.66]

"Although Mama(Om Radhe) doesn’t possess a (corporeal) body, she continues to make efforts (through her subtle body). She goes out on service. She enters into the bodies of children and shows the path to the sinful to become pure." [Mu 22.07.72]

"If Mama(Om Radhe) and (Brahma)Baba(Krishna) enter into someone (in their subtle bodies), then they can sit there itself and study through them." [Mu 27.08.05]

"Like Brahma(Baba Krishna), even you children have to do the duty of entering bodies (to serve, if you lose your last body before the end of the Confluence Age)." [Av 26.01.70]

"Advance Party is doing service by transforming the corporeal body (nar to Narayan in this very birth), but the role of some (souls) continues till the end through the corporeal and also the subtle form. What is your role? Does anyone have a role in the Advance Party? Does anyone have a role of service through the subtle body (Antahvaahak sharir)? Both have different importance (corporeal and subtle bodied souls). It's not a question of first or second. It's the importance of variety role (as both are required). The task of the Advance Party is also not less important. I had told that they are preparing their own plans zestfully. They(Mama-Baba) are well known even there (in the Advance Party)." [Av 25.01.80]

"Many children are going in advance; one should not feel bad. They will go and receive... time is also required to receive. Mother(Mama Om Radhe) and Father(Brahma Baba Krishna) must depart first, is not it (to play their roles in the Advance Party, through their subtle bodies)?" [Mu 27.02.73]

"When (Brahma)Baba reaches the Karmateet stage (first of all... then) you children will also attain this stage... But this Karmateet stage will be achieved only in the end." [Mu 03.05.73]

"Supreme Soul Shiv through Prajapita(Brahma aka Shankar), transforms the Night of Brahma into the Day of Brahma." [Mu 27.02.74]

"Now it's Brahma's night. So it is night for Brahma(Baba Krishna in terms of knowledge) also, is not it? Then, when he becomes Vishnu (at the end through finally completely recognising Shiv Shankar Bholenath as the corporeal God of the Gita), it will be day." [Mu 15.10.77]

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Re: Meaning of Avaykt Bap-Dada.

Post by Shiv1976 » 02 Sep 2013

AUM SHANTI.

Adding to Roy Bhai's points, here are few more.

"When the arrival of all the souls from there ends, you will attain the Karmateet stage."[11.7.71]

"Until there are diseases, it signifies that the Karmateet stage is not achieved."[Mu-24.2.69]

"Do not think that some children have attained Karmateet stage, and the race is going on."[Mu-25.7.76]

"This (Brahma) has also not become complete. Until he attains the Karmateet stage, I shall continue to teach. You will also continue to study and teach. "(26.6.75, pg.3)

"Mama - Baba bi jayenge, ananya bacche bi advance mai jayenge|...aise nahi ki Mama - Baba koyi paripurn ho gaye hain|Paripurn avastha anth mai hogi|"[Mu-10.11.88]

Shiv1976.

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Re: Meaning of Avaykt Bap-Dada.

Post by shivsena » 03 Sep 2013

shivachild wrote:
Before 18.01.1969 Brahma-Lekhraj Kirpalani-Krishna was not complete.
The only complete soul before 1969 was Om Radhey-Mama-Jagdamba Saraswati.
Imo....this complete Brahma in Subtle Region is Om Radhey-Mama-Jagdamba Saraswati.[/color]
Dear shivachild.

Yeh sampoorna brahma(Mama) ka raaj koto mei koi aur koi mei bhi koi hi jaan sakta hai....Mu: "jo iss raaj ko nahi jaanenge, woh naraaz ho jayenge".

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