Prajapati God Brahma

To discuss the BK and PBK versions of the factual Yagya history from the beginning.
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Roy
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Re: Prajapati God Brahma

Post by Roy » 21 Jan 2013

fluffy bunny wrote:Interesting, I've never seen the Ramesh quote before. I don't want to give bhatti boy any cause for distraction ... but, from a PBK point of view, if we correlated the 'Ramesh quote' with the 'demonic quote', is there a connection? It was Ramesh who founded the trust on 16th January after which hearing of the next day and a bit later, Lekhraj Kirpalani died.
As always you are on the ball fluffy Bhai; here is a quote from the document Mateshwari – Mother Of The Entire World (download full document below)

When we were to hold an exhibition in Mumbai for the first time, I discussed it with Mama. Mama asked what the expenses would be. I said, “Mama, we need to first get Baba’s permission.” Mama said, “Mama gives you permission on Baba’s behalf. Tell me how much it will cost.” I gave her an estimate. Mama said it was fine and that we could go ahead. Mama always gave me her approval. We had to create pictures for the exhibition. After they were ready, we would send them to Baba for
any corrections and he would then return them to us. Baba once wrote in his letter, “The son has become crazy over these pictures. What will we do with so many? The three – Tree, Trimurti and Cycle – are more than enough.” Mama’s enthusiastic words were also written at the bottom corner of the letter: “Son Ramesh, whatever you are doing is fine. Baba is only testing you. Continue making pictures.” In this way, I always received Mama’s support, her favour, and encouragement. The first exhibition of the Yagya was inaugurated on 29 December 1964 and attended by Mama too.


This is interesting, because it appears that if we are to believe what Ramesh Bhai says here; Mama herself defied ShivBaba's instructions. Is he simply trying to pass the buck, because in the Murli, ShivBaba places the responsibility on his shoulders for these demoniacal actions?
fluffy bunny wrote:I know the BKs will say that the "demons" are non-BKs in the Hindu community, so I am not interested in that definition. If for the Advance Knowledge, everything in about people and events within the Yugya, then I'd like to know that opinion. And, who is Christ?
The use of the word demonic here, is definately referring to demonic actions performed by Brahmins in the Confluence Age.

"Godly directions (Shrimat) and demoniac directions (manmat) are together (in the Murli), aren’t they? Dada’s directions are different; God’s directions are different." [Mu 27.04.72]

Pandavas(deity souls) and Kauravas(demonic souls) are in the Confluence Age (Brahmin world)." [Mu 20.06.05]

"Now Ram(God's community) and Ravana(demonic community) both communities are present. All these are present at the Confluence Age." [Mu 26.04.74]

fluffy bunny wrote:And, who is Christ?
I think Baba is simply saying that to remember Brahma Baba, is as worthless in terms of receiving your inheritance, as if you were to remember Jesus Christ, whose astrological chart is said to be similar to Krishna's i believe.
fluffy bunny wrote:That's Dadi Janki then because just a few years later, and at the same time, she was exporting Lekhraj Kirpalani's picture all over the West spreading ignorance and Bhakti amongst BKs which has not reach endemic proportions.
Exactly!
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Re: Prajapati God Brahma

Post by mbbhat » 22 Jan 2013

fluffy bunny wrote:1)Have you read any of the old documents produced and signed by the Om Mandli ?

2)I was just reading the big poster 'Divine Decree' where he writes in first person, "I, that selfsame Viceless Deity Kalgidhar SREE Krishna of Vaikunth or BRAHM-PURI have now incarnated ..." etc etc etc. They quote him directly and he calls himself the Ocean of Unfathomable Supreme Wisdom.

3)Are you suggesting that the posters and book would have been produced and sent out to royalty etc without him knowing or checking?
1)I have read many of a few at least. May not be with every minute details.

Signed by Om Mandli means? - by members and not by DL?

2) Has he signed here? Or have the Om Mandli members wrote so and signed there?

3) I do not know. There can be the possibility that BBaba was simply witnessing all these. Because he did not know. He used to write circles in wall initially. That implies he did not know. Others would be having josh( intoxication) and might have taken such steps.

Hence I do jump to such conclusions what you or PBKs claim here.

But, anyhow, PBKs should be able to throw more point, if they believe Yagya pita was Sevakram from 1936 to 1942. For me, more and more such things come out, it places the ball in the court of PBKs more and more.

But, you have point and I would be wrong if the following is true.
That is- if shiv had spoken some great/special points through mouth of DL and DL felt that he spoke himself due to his own (new) internal power (due to Krishna or Brahma's incarnation in him), then you are right. We will have to admit that he believed himself as God of Gita or the supreme one. I agree.

There is a Murli point- "Children do not understand that it is ShivBaba who helped them when they give knowledge to others. It is ShivBaba who helps them. But, children feel that today we/I explained very well and become egoistic".

But, the point is- when PBKs can give excuse to Sevakram (as if it is not a great fault or no much harm is caused by that for anyone) for leaving Yagya during 1942 and give reason for that as it happened due to no much knowledge during that time, but if they use the belief of BBaba before 1942 and criticize him, it shows their sillyness. [Was there enough gyaan for BBaba during that period? ]

Anyhow, it is up to them. Good.
When the children ask for the photo of Baba, then Baba understands that they are completely ignorant ... Never ask for a photo.” [Mu 04.11.79]
But , there is clear Murli point- Prajapita kaa alag photo honaa chaahiye = there should be a separate photo of Prajapita (for service -to highlight him as Chariot). I have read this myself. But, sorry, I had not noted the date.

Just think- even today many get visions of brahma Baba. So- how can they search BKWSU easily after getting that vision? It is possible only if BKWSU advertises his photo. Very simple.

Of course, if a BK feels there is need of his photo for his personal effort, then he is ignorant. So- if PBKs claim that they can understand deep/subtle meanings in the Murli points, and if they do not try to put effort here, it is up to them.

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Re: Prajapati God Brahma

Post by mbbhat » 22 Jan 2013

Roy wrote:- It made me smile that you think the PBKs are doing the shooting of pulling India down, by claiming that Brahma Baba Krishna and his worshippers, believe him to be the God of the Gita. PBKs are trying to expose the reality of what is going on in the Confluence Age, not promote the belief in this. If it is in the hearts and minds of Brahma Baba and his worshippers, that he is the God of the Gita, then the shooting is being done; there is no need for this to be verbalised. It is a well known fact that human beings go around saying one thing, but reveal their true selves through their actions. If you don't consider huge pictures of Brahma Baba as worshipping their God, then i don't know what is. This is the BKs' corporeal God Krishna; there is no doubt about that.
I just hit the ball to yourself (PBKs) what they comment about BKs. I did not claim that like you claim. I had also given another reason for that in this forum [Since BBaba is the no. one soul, during absence of Father/shiv, he is going to get that seat. And from the beginning of heaven, the rudramala turns to be vishnumala (= Krishna mala), so there is very simple answer.]

Good to know about your views.

Your above quote also made me smile, because you write as if
- you know what is there in others' (BKs') mind,

- as if you know and are able to experience what they internally feel

and jumping to the conclusion instantaneously.

The number of photo of Shiv is much more than BBaba in BKWSU. But, in case of AIVV, photo/presence/feeling of Dixit is higher than Shiv. This shows the truth in reality who is worshipping whom, is it not?.

But, fine, good.

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Re: Prajapati God Brahma

Post by fluffy bunny » 22 Jan 2013

Ramesh Shah wrote:When we were to hold an exhibition in Mumbai for the first time ... We had to create pictures for the exhibition. After they were ready, we would send them to Baba for any corrections ... ... The first exhibition of the Yagya was inaugurated on 29 December 1964 and attended by Mama too.
What then were the big posters created in the 1940s?

It does not add up, it's a confusion of events, it hides the early history, it's not transparent.
This is interesting, because it appears that if we are to believe what Ramesh Bhai says here; Mama herself defied ShivBaba's instructions. Is he simply trying to pass the buck, because in the Murli, ShivBaba places the responsibility on his shoulders for these demoniacal actions?
Perhaps they all lived off Lekhraj Kirpalani but then started to treat him like he was silly old man and used him?

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Re: Prajapati God Brahma

Post by Roy » 22 Jan 2013

mbbhat wrote:... even though no Bk after 1955 (approximately) says that god of Gita is either DL or Krishna. Really a great wonderful point to be thought.
We are both forgetting, that after Mama's death in 1965, the name Pitashri(Brahma Baba Krishna) was added before ShivBaba in the Sakar Murlis... so that instead of saying, ShivBaba Yaad hai?... they then read... Madhuban Pitashri ShivBaba Yaad hai? This effectively makes Brahma Baba Krishna, God, the narrator of the Gita; and the true narrator, ShivBaba(God Father Shiv) is removed from the picture. So this is also the shooting in the Confluence Age, of making Krishna, God of the Gita.

Father says, 'Who is the foolish person(Brahmin) who has removed my name completely (from the Murli, by placing the title Pitashri in front of ShivBaba)?' Then, I (Shiv) only have to come (in 1976, in the form of the Father, in the body of Shankar, aka Prajapita-Ram) and reveal that I, the Supreme Soul Shiva am the God mentioned in Gita. I have created Gita(Mata Jagadamaba). The child Krishna(Brahma Baba) took birth from Gita(Mata). You (Brahmin children) have then added the name of child (Pitashri Brahma Baba Krishna) instead of Father(ShivBaba). This is the biggest mistake." [Mu 13.12.88]


Doesn't this act itself, reveal the consciousness of the Brahmin children in terms of Brahma Baba Krishna... they even put him in front of ShivBaba in the Murli. They say actions speak louder than words... i rest my case!

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Re: Prajapati God Brahma

Post by Roy » 22 Jan 2013

mbbhat wrote:... there is clear Murli point- Prajapita kaa alag photo honaa chaahiye = there should be a separate photo of Prajapita (for service -to highlight him as Chariot)
Yes, this is an excellent point, and is saying as well as Brahma Baba's picture; there should be a picture of Prajapita Brahma(Ram). In other words; Father Shiv is hinting, that there is another significant actor(Prajapita-Ram) who plays a part in the Confluence Age, the part of the Father... Brahma Baba Krishna, plays the part of the mother.

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Re: Prajapati God Brahma

Post by Roy » 22 Jan 2013

fluffy bunny wrote:What then were the big posters created in the 1940s?
I am not sure if I am answering your question; but the 40s pictures were superseded by the pictures of the 60s... some were created before Mama's death, and only contain the name Brahma Kumaris. Then after Mama's death in 1965; ShivBaba started to talk about Prajapita in the Murlis, and the importance of using the name, in terms of proving the Father... Thus the last two pictures created after 1965, which you will notice aren't mentioned in the article; were the Ladder, and the picture of Lakshmi-Narayan... both of which have the name Prajapita Brahmakumaris on them. Baba was hinting at this time; that the true Prajapita was about to return to the Yagya, and the importance of his role as the true spiritual Father.

"Krishna(Brahma Baba) cannot be called spiritual Father(as he is the true elder mother, who remains in subtle Avyakt form, from 1969)." [Mu 28.10.90]

“Baba keeps explaining. Also go on making corrections. One must definitely write the word ‘Prajapita Brahma’ before ‘Brahmakumar-kumaris’. By saying ‘Prajapita’ the Father is proved. The question that we precisely ask, is... what is your relationship with Prajapita Brahma? It is because many people (in the Brahmin Yagya) have the name Brahma. Some females also have the name Brahma... Nobody has the name Prajapita. That is why the word ‘Prajapita’ is very important.” [Mu 06.09.07]

"Even on your board, the word ‘Prajapita’ is very important. This word must be added without fail. It is not so effective if just the word ‘Brahma’ is written. So even the board should be corrected by writing the correct word. This is a very important word. Even females have the name Brahma." [Mu 17.12.05]

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Re: Prajapati God Brahma

Post by mbbhat » 23 Jan 2013

mbbhat wrote:... 1)there is clear Murli point- Prajapita kaa alag photo honaa chaahiye = there should be a separate photo of Prajapita (for service -to highlight him as Chariot)
Roy wrote: 2)Yes, this is an excellent point, and is saying as well as Brahma Baba's picture; there should be a picture of Prajapita Brahma(Ram). In other words; Father Shiv is hinting, that there is another significant actor(Prajapita-Ram) who plays a part in the Confluence Age, the part of the Father... Brahma Baba Krishna, plays the part of the mother.
1)I think- the Murli point gives no room for any pbk to complain BKs if they use photo of Brahma Baba for advertising/service purpose.

2) That may be pbk interpretation. But, again here- it is losing value, since the Murli point says- separate photo.

Previously PBKs have argued that when there is photo of Brahma Baba in Trimurti, what is the necessity of his photo separately.

So- why should there be separate photo of Mr. dixit ? since main aim of PBKs is to serve BKs, just a photo of dixit in Trimurti would be enough.

But, since lowkik people usually are attached to like- questioning- who is your Guru, founder, etc. they are more/first interested in physical personality than the knowledge, hence there it is necessary.

But, I do not think PBKs need to have a separate photo of Mr. Dixit to give their knowledge to BKs.

But, OK- it is views of PBKs. fine.

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Re: Prajapati God Brahma

Post by arjun » 23 Jan 2013

1)I think- the Murli point gives no room for any PBK to complain BKs if they use photo of Brahma Baba for advertising/service purpose.

2) That may be PBK interpretation. But, again here- it is losing value, since the Murli point says- separate photo.

Previously PBKs have argued that when there is photo of Brahma Baba in Trimurti, what is the necessity of his photo separately.
First quote the exact Murli point with date and then argue or defame others.

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Re: Prajapati God Brahma

Post by Roy » 23 Jan 2013

mbbhat wrote:So- why should there be separate photo of Mr. dixit ? since main aim of PBKs is to serve BKs, just a photo of dixit in Trimurti would be enough.
I think you have to be careful to make sure Father Shiv is actually speaking literally. Having said there is no need for extra pictures, why then would He be saying in this point, that you do need a separate picture of Prajapita(Brahma Baba). Taken literally, this is a conflicting point to the one about the Trimurti, if he is talking about Prajapita in terms of the title holder, Brahma Baba Krishna. But if it is a hint that there is another corporeal actor, who plays the part of the true Prajapita in the Confluence Age; it makes complete sense.

"Prajapita Brahma(Ram) will be here (in corporeal form) only. His(Brahma Baba Krishna's) last birth is Lekhraj. He cannot become (the true) Prajapita (as he loses many years of corporeal life whilst playing the subtle Avyakt role)." [Mu 21.08.73]

"He (Dada Lekhraj) was a jeweller... (but) how can he be Prajapita (when he doesn't remain in corporeal form throughout the Confluence Age, to be witnessed in practical form as being the Father of Humanity by the whole world at the end)?" [Mu 29.07.77]

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Re: Prajapati God Brahma

Post by mbbhat » 24 Jan 2013

arjun wrote:First quote the exact Murli point with date and then argue or defame others.
The exact Murli point is- Prajapita ka alag photo honaa chaahiye = There should be separate photo of Prajapita.

I have already said that at present I do not have date. So- it will not have full value. So- there is no question of defaming at all. It is up to the members who read them. The members who read this will give value accordingly they like. But, I am 100% sure since i have read it myslef.

Now, if you say so- then when i had asked for scanned copy of the Murli point what you had wrote here, you had not been able to produce. Then how can you accuse others? [There had been typing errors which seemed to be done deliberately by AIVV- for which i had given the proof of with the scanned copy].

Actually, you could have written just like this-

#I do not believe in the Murli point since the date is not mentioned or,

# I do not believe in the Murli point since the date is not mentioned, but will try to explain it myself- so it may be like this or like that- (like roy soul explains).

But, instead- even when i had expressed that- I do not have date, (and also mentioned as sorry) what is the need for you to say so? Why do you feel defamed?

And, here- some PBKs (eg- roy soul) have written the Murli points inaccurately- then you do not have any problem. but, when my translation was not accurate, you will comment as if I have done something blunder. Is this not both foolishness/childishness and double standards?

Just think- even someone has pointed your contradictions. Here in the following link/topic-

http://bk-pbk.info/viewtopic.php?f=38&t ... 501#p44501

You asked proof, but when it was given, you do not accept. Then what is the use for such people even if proof is given or date of Murli is given? [And- a senior pbk like you who have enough database of Murli points , clarifications, do not know about their own literature and need proof from others?]

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Re: Prajapati God Brahma

Post by arjun » 24 Jan 2013

Thanks for narrating a Ramayana on my one line request of producing the exact date and line.

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Re: Prajapati God Brahma

Post by mbbhat » 24 Jan 2013

Thank you dear soul.

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Re: Prajapati God Brahma

Post by sita » 24 Mar 2014

An interesting detail may be that Prajapati refers to the planet Uranus. Also In some texts of the scriptures Brahma and Prajapati are linked.

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Re: Prajapati God Brahma

Post by sita » 08 Apr 2014

We can tally the development of the conception of God in worldy history with the history of the Yagya. Prajapati is the first conception of a single God to cristalize in the brahmanas (the literature) out of the many believes. Also the idea about Vishnu incartanting comes first in the Vedas. The name of Shiva is not mentioned in the Vedas.

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