Lekhraj Kirpalani genuine age; why lies and re-writes?

To discuss the BK and PBK versions of the factual Yagya history from the beginning.
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Shiv1976
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Re: Lekhraj Kirpalani genuine age; why lies and re-writes?

Post by Shiv1976 » 09 Sep 2013

AUM SHANTI.

Dear fluffy Bhai,
These are Tamasin Ramsay's notes?
Not sure. Author's name is not mentioned here. Not sure from where I got this. I think i downloaded it from this forum.
I think you agree with me that what she/they mean is that the majority of women in his circle were just infatuated with their Krishna Kripalani
Perfect. Even Baba has clarified and it is also there in Murlis where Baba says, earlier there used to be divine visions. Just by uttering the word "Om" people go into trance.I will try to get the exact Murli point for this.Adi dev book by BKs also says this. They did not know it was Shiv who was doing the things since 1936.Yes because of lots of revision in the Yagya history,things have become much more complicated for us to know about it. Few documents which you have uploaded in this forum also clearly proves that, in the early days of Yagya it was DL who was considered to be GOD. I think one document says "Prajapati God Brahma-The Gita sermonizer".

Let us wait for the truth to come out.

Shiv1976.

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Re: Lekhraj Kirpalani genuine age; why lies and re-writes?

Post by mbbhat » 11 Sep 2013

[quote="FB""]You cannot trust recent Murlis produced by the Brahma Kumaris, let alone their comic magazines! They are almost worthless now.[/quote]
Then why do PBKs follow them? Or had been following them? Do you say - they have been highly erroneous/childish?
You've been made into mess by them by following their ness.
What all you have, or written in your so many posts everywhere- are they free from mess? Have you not added anything to mess by even by supporting PBKs even when they had done mistakes?
it's not a big mistake to typeset 44 instead of 55. It's only one letter apart.
So- now, you have started to compromise in truth instead of accuracy! Really wonderful and a great standard of the great truth seekers. OK, let us agree.

But- Have you read the word "handsome" in the news paper cutting? And- if you see the picture of the trance message in Karachi- should be within 1947- how old does BBaba look like in that photo? You have not commented at all so far. From the picture, do you feel Lekhraj Kirpalani could be handsome during 1939?
Ask your self
Do not you feel you also need to ask yourself before jumping into conclusion, else you may really miss real truth?
Why did they cover up and hide ...
The greatest cause is mostly terrible misuse of Murli points by Mr. V Dixt and then PBKs . [Already said to you and proved in this forum]. Else, I believe so much would not have had happened. There could have been just a few Murli cuts, like regarding to failure of destruction, etc.

[Some were cut due to carelessness or laziness, not sure- while period of Bbaba himself.]

What do you feel about misusing of Murli points about PBKs and their interpretations? Are they as per your level of truth and accuracy? Are you happy about that? Are they helping you to find truth or adding something to the mess?
The birth certificated is supported by other evidence, and that the leaders of the Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University lie, confuse, cover up, hide and manipulate ... is also supported by other evidence.
Not sure. They are just hear says - like some affidavits of lowkik people. There are contradicting things in one another in some matters.

And- what could have been accuracy in those days in India?

And- the style of speech of Baba - no one can estimate. So- what does the date of birth of BBaba has to do with gyaan/knowledge when other Murli points say in different ways?

The BKWSU literature also says- BBaba was late fifties ...(during 1936). OK, let us agree that even that is wrong. Just see the photo of BBaba in karachi which seems BBaba is almost 65 before 1947 itself (as per my perception).

http://bk-pbk.info/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=2180&start=225
Lekhraj Kirpalani was 52 in 1936 and there was no mention of Shiva until at least after 1955.
May be your judgment, which has no enough support. So- still it is matter of research only. Yet to be known.
And even in around 1955, they still thought the bodiless, incorporeal god was an aspect of Lekhraj Kirpalani and not separate being.
This is according to your biased belief. and, definitely far from truth. [This clearly shows how eager you are to accept/claim/declare/force false/doubt as truth]. The Om radhe interview says- I am God, you are God, everyone as God and the indivisble light as incorporeal God.
Therefore, 98% of what you have been told and believe about the history is absolutely false. You don't even realise how much of it is false yet.
I feel this applies to you as well as PBKs more than any other.

[ For me, it does no matter much, because I have already enjoyed my Bk life wonderfully. And, I believe these are just information and not part of essence.

But, for PBKs, this(age of Lekhraj Kirpalani) is base! and, for you such things are real truth. But, you are standing on hear says and statements of lowkik people! and PBKs on the useless, outdated comic book and erroneous Murli points!
Yes, perhaps the spirit did start influencing Lekhraj Kirpalani around 1947 ... but he and they clearly did not have any knowledge of it at that time.
Which spirit? You had been saying Lekhraj Kirpalani was doing hypnostism! So- now, did your theory/belief got changed? {Or did not I get you properly?]
People here and at the ex-BK website are way ahead of the BKs in these matters,
May be ahead but, definitely lot of holes inside, but they do not know that there are holes in their belief!
but they still do not have a complete picture of what happened yet
Agreed.
You're just confused.
A waste personal comment, is it not. Did I ever say- I am 100% sure about Lekhraj Kirpalani's age? I did not say so. Even then is there need to comment so?

OK, now Who is not confused about this? Do you think you or PBKs have found this truth and sure of age of Baba without any doubt?

I have put more details here with relevant older(almost reliable) Murli points. See post No. 84 onwards

http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... &start=110

PBKs who claim ShivBaba had not entered BBaba in 1936 on the basis of Murlis points should also be able to explain other Murlis points which clearly imply ShivBaba had entered in BBaba during almost 1936 itself.

I do not like to put those Murli points here- because some of them have are already put in this forum.

If you or any pbk wishes to discuss on this, you may put your views in existing relevant topics or in this topic itself or here- - http://bk-pbk.info/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=2180&start=240

You had said BBaba attracted others by hypnotism. Would you like to say- how even after death of Bbaba people believe in Bk knowledge? is it due to hypnotism? Were you hypnotized?

All the best to the great wonderful soul.

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Re: Lekhraj Kirpalani genuine age; why lies and re-writes?

Post by warrior » 12 Sep 2013

For the benefit of all soul and study the Birth Certificate of Dada Lekhraj is now uploaded here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/om_mandli/

Lets the truth prevail over lies.

Warrior

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Re: Lekhraj Kirpalani genuine age; why lies and re-writes?

Post by fluffy bunny » 12 Sep 2013

mbbhat wrote:Do not you feel you also need to ask yourself before jumping into conclusion, else you may really miss real truth?
You embarrass yourself ...

Now we have the evidence, and can see the truth, we can also see clearly who has 'the sanskar to see and tell the truth' and who has 'the sanskar to confuse and deceive' others.

How many BKs have come along and edited the Wikipedia writing 1876 like the BKWSU tells them? It just shows you why one cannot believe the BKs.

Until today, you and all the other BKs would have argued black and blue that Lekhraj Kirpalani was 60 in the year 1936, your Dadis and Didis have been telling everyone so ... and know we know if they are true or not.
do you feel Lekhraj Kirpalani could be handsome during 1939?
What a strange question ... I am not attracted to men in that way.

Perhaps if we had a picture of him in his shorts bathing with the kumaris we could tell how much of a hunk he was, or was not?

I was say he was just average ... but money and power makes even an ugly man very attractive to some kind of women.

Ask the question, "how many BK would have been attracted to the path if Lekhraj Kirpalani had been an ordinary man like Virendra Dev Dixit, or a more strict man like the partner?" and you are asking the questions, "how many BK are just attracted to the path because of its apparent power and wealthy and the security it would give them today?"

Many I would say, and the insincere are increasing.

I am more attracted to a poor, ugly man who is sincere and truthful than a rich and powerful who flatters, lies and deceives.
fluffy bunny wrote:Lekhraj Kirpalani was 52 in 1936 and there was no mention of Shiva until at least after 1955.
mbbhat wrote:May be your judgment, which has no enough support. So- still it is matter of research only. Yet to be known.
fluffy bunny wrote:And even in around 1955, they still thought the bodiless, incorporeal god was an aspect of Lekhraj Kirpalani and not separate being.
This is according to your biased belief. and, definitely far from truth ...
Are you going to be so bold now?

Let's have a wager and see who is more accurate. If you are so sure that your Dadis and Didis fill your the head with the truth, let's make it a significant bet.
You had said BBaba attracted others by hypnotism. Would you like to say- how even after death of Bbaba people believe in BK knowledge? is it due to hypnotism? Were you hypnotized?
Is the basis of the BK meditation self-hypnosis?

Yes, I think it is.

I think there is more to it than just that but the main part is hypnosis.

However, you mean "mesmerism" in English ... the women were mesmerised by Lekhraj Kirpalani. That is slightly different. They did not have meditation like it is practised today.

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Re: Lekhraj Kirpalani genuine age; why lies and re-writes?

Post by mbbhat » 12 Sep 2013

fluffy bunny wrote:You embarrass yourself ...
Really? Even then it is OK. No need to worry. Probably it would have made you happier. So- good only, is it not?
Now we have the evidence,
That is really good. I have already said you are great. No doubt about it.
How many BKs have come along and edited the Wikipedia writing 1876 like the BKWSU tells them? It just shows you why one cannot believe the BKs.
I do not know about that. I am not bothered about what BKs do. Because it is well known that only 108 pass even in BKs. So- nothing strange even if there is weakness or fault.

You have been sock puppet in Wike Pedia and have written in biased way against standards of Wiki Pedia. I have heard that you also have been banned there many times.
Until today, you and all the other BKs would have argued black and blue that Lekhraj Kirpalani was 60 in the year 1936,
This does not bother me at all even if he is not 60 in 1936. I have already said.
What a strange question ... I am not attracted to men in that way.
It is not a strange question. I just pointed that what is written there is far from truth. From the photo that of trance message in Karachi, it does not seem that he was handsome. But, the news paper cutting says so.

So- if the people during that period were saying so, then I just said- no data, even birth certificate need not be accurate.

Anyhow, even if LR is not 60 at 1936, it is immaterial. Because Murlis are puzzles. So- real truth is not dependent on the DOB of BBaba. It depends on whether ShivBaba entered first in him or someone else before. That is all.
Perhaps if we had a picture of him in his shorts bathing with the Kumaris we could tell how much of a hunk he was, or was not?
You may do research and try to get such things.
I was say he was just average ... but money and power makes even an ugly man very attractive to some kind of women.
Your own research/post about LR - the report of Chief Justice says he was not so.
FB wrote:A Chief Justice of India wrote:
The Bhai Bunds did business and were not greatly educated.

Dada Lekhraj felt he must do something for these unfortunate women. He founded Om Mandli and surrendered his wealth to the institution. Scores of women joined the Om Mandli and contributed their wealth to this institution. Dada Lekhraj preached the Bhagavad Gita and preformed Ras Lila with them. The Ras Lila became very popular. Dada's house became the headquarters of Om Mandli. Many women left their homes and resided there along with Dada Lekhraj's family. Dada Lekhraj, his wife and grown son and daughter lived in the same house, which indicated that Lekhraj could not have any immoral relations with the women living in that house. Soon many cases of kidnapping and abduction were filed against Lekhraj by the families of these women.

The magistrates in Hyderabad issued summons against him. Parmanand Kundanmal asked me to go to Hyderabad, meet Dada Lekhraj and appear for him in the cases. I went and stayed with Dada Lekhraj. I could have stayed in a hotel or in the house of Hiranand Kundanmal, but I wanted to meet Dada Lekhraj and see things for myself. Om Radhe, young unmarried woman was in charge of the organisation. She was a talented girl and I have seldom seen so much wisdom and virtue as I found in her.

My contacts with Dada Lekhraj were equaly profitable. His face indicated his character - a man like him could not be lecherous. His knowledge of the religion was not very deep - even his grasp of the Bhagvad Gita was not something that would impress many educated and intelligent men but he knew the basic teachings and could explain them to the uneducated Bania women.
And- if you criticize and defame, I have no problem, because more you criticize, more his value will become in the end.
Ask the question, "how many BK would have been attracted to the path if Lekhraj Kirpalani had been an ordinary man like Veerendra Dev Dixit, or a more strict man like the partner?" and you are asking the questions, "how many BK are just attracted to the path because of its apparent power and wealthy and the security it would give them today?*"


I am more attracted to a poor, ugly man who is sincere and truthful than a rich and powerful who flatters, lies and deceives*.

You had not understood the question at all, hence went on saying something else.

I do not think - anyone becomes BK by seeing wealth in BKWSU.
Are you going to be so bold now?
I did not get you. What boldness? I say- my faith will not change. Even after failures of predictions of destruction, it has not mattered.

This matter (DOB matter) is much lesser significant when compared to the above. Because age/DOB matter is related with just PBK theories (which is already counter attacked very well by mbbhat, as well as the splinter groups or ex PBKs more clearly), where as the failure in the prediction of destruction matters with the whole world.

Another point here is- Now- as DOB of LR is found as 15th Dec 1884. Now, PBKs claimed it to be 1886. So- they are also caught in mess. One of the pbk members) say, there could be error of two years. But, the difference is three years in full- 1884 Dec till 1987 Oct- there is almost 3 years difference from 100 years. [The milan from 1987 Oct to 1988 March did not happen] So- their claim has a hole in the beginning itself. That is- even if it is 1886, as PBKs claim, it will become 101 years by Oct 1987, is it not? There is error of one year! How can they explain this?

Now, do you think there can be error in the DOB of 2/3 years? If yes, why not error of 8 years? - (just for brain storming)OK, let us agree that it is an error of 2/3 years in DOB and PBKs are right and also 101 can be equated to 100.

Now, can PBKs explain other Murli points which clearly prove that ShivBaba had entered in BBaba when he left lowkik Gita, when he sacrificed his wealth, when he used to draw circles on wall? Why not name of Sevakram or some partner in British library documents?

So- they can just point fingers at BKs, agreed. But, they have not got a single evidence that ShivBaba is in AIVV.
Yes, I think it is.

I think there is more to it than just that but the main part is hypnosis.

However, you mean "mesmerism" in English ... the women were mesmerised by Lekhraj Kirpalani. That is slightly different. They did not have meditation like it is practised today.
You again did not understand my question.

My point was- if during olden days- hypnotism/mesmerism was the cause for attraction, as you have/had been saying, what is cause for attraction towards BKWSU today? even when LR is not present? [OK. let us agree all of your words. Now, after 1951, beggary part, there was no wealth and more than 80% of BKs had left. What was the cause for attraction then? ]- This is why I say to you that sometimes yours is LLU.

So- my point was- sometimes you say- the cause was hypnotism, sometimes you say spirit, sometimes say wealth (Foolishness), sometimes, probably something else.

So- your argument loses value, your claims become almost nil. So- you seem to be or may get caught in your own mess. This was the point I felt here.

But, you will win, so do not worry. Because you are interested in just truth, is it not? So- God will really guide you if you are honest.
-----------
* - I had already said this before- If Mr. Dixit had just pointed mistakes in BKWSU , and would have been sincere, I would have appreciated him. But, he interprets Murli points wrongly, claims God comes in him, claims that he is Krishna, Ram, ShivBaba, Supreme Soul, Narayan, Shankar, unable to rectify simplest of typing errors, blindly following them, and everyday criticizing others is a part of agenda in their daily spiritual teachings. dependent on others for their teachings, even after pointing the errors His members are not ready to accept them, He does not say openly that he is prajapita, but his children say - he is Prajapita, ShivBaba, etc, etc ... You call this as sincerity? Is this your measuring standard? Great then!

Seems that you will embarrass yourself.

Let us wait as per drama or time.

Sorry, please excuse me if I have hurt you dear soul. What can I do? When you throw stones to a wall, they just rebound, is it not. So- if you cannot catch them, just leave/ignore them. You will be full be fully comfort.

[Actually I have to become water (sacrifice ego fully) instead of wall. So- please bear to some extent. ]

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Re: Lekhraj Kirpalani genuine age; why lies and re-writes?

Post by fluffy bunny » 17 Sep 2013

Too long, total garbage as usual, did not read ...


Any way, there is no argument any more because we have a copy of the birth certificate and it proves the BKs have been lying, fabricating and deceived others for decades, see here.

Lekhraj Kirpalani was not "sixty-ish", he was "fifty-ish" and in no position to retire formally according to Hindu tradition as he son and heir as too young at the time.
warrior wrote:This is for those who query how the certificate of Lekhraj was found.
The year and fathers name:
Found by using references of two books - Is this Justice? ... Om Mandli

Grand-Father's name:
The grand-Father Vishindas and place of birth was a give away information by a family member of the Kirpalani.

aum
One question, and please don't allow me to confuse other issues, who is Shewakram Khubchand Daswani?

Well spotted on page (75).

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Re: Lekhraj Kirpalani genuine age; why lies and re-writes?

Post by warrior » 17 Sep 2013

fluffy bunny wrote: One question, and please don't allow me to confuse other issues, who is Shewakram Khubchand Daswani?
Well spotted on page (75).
Yes who was this person? I wonder about what part he plays in broad drama coz by mistake for half of sanganyuga his name is glorify day after day ...

OK let me tell you what is there about Shewakram so far.

The story is very long, so I will just highlight what I can remember right now. If there is anything in particular you want to know, ask.

Shewakram was an account working for the company Tarachand Pursram, in Calcutta.
Lekhraj joined Tarachand Pursram as a trainee in the diamond trade. There he met Shewakram. Both were made managers in the same company.
Circa beginning 1920's Tarachand diverted money from the company to hide the profits and that sadden Lekhraj very much. And this was the fact that lead Lekhraj to break away from Tarachand and establish his own company. Before leaving he invited Shewakram to join him. Both left Tarachand and open the first diamond trade shop only few doors away from Tarachand business at 21, Park Street, Calcutta. Tarachand was sited at 57, Park Street.

The 21, Park Street was an amazing place. A two store building, Georgian in style with colonnades and two round staircases that lead to upper show rooms on the second floor. The business between Lekhraj and Shewakram started 50/50 from day one. After this they went on and opened other shops at Surana Mansion, New Market, etc. So both of them made millions. And the wealth is there visible till today in the family of Shewakram. His descendants live in luxury apartments in the heart of Bombay.

Shewakram was married twice. His first wife died at child birth and so he re-married to Kishini. When Lekhraj decided to part away from the business, Shewakram given Lekhraj his share in money, gold and diamonds. Shewakram carried on with business for sometimes and eventually moved to Bombay and open new business in Bombai.
1921 - THACKERS Indian DIRECTORY @ BL PAGE 155
21 Park Street Calcutta.jpg

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Re: Lekhraj Kirpalani genuine age; why lies and re-writes?

Post by fluffy bunny » 20 Sep 2013

So this Shewakram was Lekhraj Kirpalani's partner ... but not the individual who became the medium?

Is that correct?

Great work.

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Re: Lekhraj Kirpalani genuine age; why lies and re-writes?

Post by shivsena » 20 Sep 2013

fluffy bunny wrote:So this Shewakram was Lekhraj Kirpalani's partner ... but not the individual who became the medium?
Is that correct?
Great work.
That is the most important question....If Shewakram was the partner ...was he the medium too??....another thing to be clarified....which year did Shewakram leave the body???...the date of demise of Shewakram and birth of -Virendra Dev Dixit in Kampil should also be co-related to prove that -Virendra Dev Dixit was indeed shewakram in the previous birth.....and many more proofs are required before we believe that the 3- murtis in the beginning of the Yagya in 1937 are the same which are going to be revealed in future (as adv-Gyan teaches).

Great research warrior Bhai.

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Re: Lekhraj Kirpalani genuine age; why lies and re-writes?

Post by warrior » 10 Dec 2013

fluffy bunny wrote:So this Shewakram was Lekhraj Kirpalani's partner ... but not the individual who became the medium?
Is that correct?
Yeah this Shewakram is called Shewakram Khubchand Daswani and was the business partner of Lekhraj and the medium was somebody else who was also a partner but with a different role of partnership.

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Re: Lekhraj Kirpalani genuine age; why lies and re-writes?

Post by fluffy bunny » 11 Dec 2013

It's a shame the BKWSU cannot grow up and just document everything accurately or help those who wish to. Instead they place obstacles and criticise and attack those who seek the truth. That is the opposite of true spirituality.

Of course, it cannot do so because to do so would be to document their own corruption and they have to keep the false facade that feeds them and keeps them in comfort for as long as possible.

They've learnt nothing about spirituality. Without truth, there is nothing ...

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