Point of light or star shaped form only arose in 1962

To discuss the BK and PBK versions of the factual Yagya history from the beginning.
sita
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Re: Point of light or star shaped form only arose in 1962

Post by sita » 19 Dec 2013

Lekhraj Kirpalani was a bhaibund Sindhi. Their traditions were different and interests in business.
As such he is also entitled of study of the scriptures. I just liked to point to having in mind the cultural and even the time distance whilst considering the aspect of the education of Brahma Baba.

I don't think he had much interest/appreciation of the Gita. To let the Gita drop out of his hand is to show disrespect and would upset sincere Hindus.
You must be talking about some concrete even you know.

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Re: Point of light or star shaped form only arose in 1962

Post by fluffy bunny » 19 Dec 2013

"Entitled" is strange word to use ... he was probably entitled to study brain surgery too.

What's generally noted about the Bhaibund Sindhis is that their interest in solely in business and their education very basic and tilted towards doing business ... and often corruptly.

For example, limited to arithmetic (accounting) ... and how to fiddle tax and import systems of the world. They even had their own special code language to do so and in this the Amils helped them.

The Om Mandli/Brahma Kumaris was lead by Bhaibunds and assisted by Amils and the Brahma Kumaris have expanded not only on the Sindiwork model, but also the Sindiwork network ... again with tricky accounting and avoiding laws etc.

The only difference is where the original SIndhis traded in and export other people's craftworks ... mostly Muslims ... the Brahma Kumari leaders trade in and export other people's ideas.

The idea of a spark of light may well have been other people's idea, for example, it arises in the Gaudiya Vaishnavism of Chaitanya Mahaprabu. I have not explored this yet but there may be similar stories of individuals having visions of sparks of light/souls in its tradition.

I'll do some research into it.

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Re: Point of light or star shaped form only arose in 1962

Post by sita » 19 Dec 2013

Accordng to scrptures, Shudra or outcast is not entitled to study the vedas.

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Re: Point of light or star shaped form only arose in 1962

Post by fluffy bunny » 19 Dec 2013

The Bhaibunds or Amils were not outcasts or shudras. They were Lohana, a merchant or Vaishya caste. The Amil were more educated and generally took positions as administrators (the word comes from 'government agent'). They became westernised, English speaking under the British and well qualified in law and so on. They were the more prestigious of the two castes but not the wealthiest. The bhaibund uneducated banias, but some made great wealth.

Interestingly, interviewers have said of them that it was difficult to find a Bhaibund male that wanted to discuss abstract matters which did not have an immediate profit or benefit to them.

The Bhaibunds were seen by the Amils as unpolished, having poor aesthetic taste, given to vulgar displays of wealth.

Rings true to me.

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Re: Point of light or star shaped form only arose in 1962

Post by sita » 20 Dec 2013

I was speculating that would be it justified if we look for some reason of dispute within the Yagya, that if Brahma Baba or other who belong to the trade class are taking leading role in religious practices, that would offend some Brahmin who would consider it his authorisation.

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Re: Point of light or star shaped form only arose in 1962

Post by fluffy bunny » 20 Dec 2013

Yes, I think that is a fair comment ... at least within the greater society as the BKs are offending Brahmin to this day by taking their positions ... but there is no record of higher caste members either being involved in the Om Mandli so far. There are records of "the elderly partner" but he seems to have been another businessman.

I have spoken to elderly Sindhis, not BKs and impartial (i.e. non-critical or friendly enough to the BKs) and they said Lekhraj Kirpalani was not an educated man, he did not know scripture. He was not, for example, a member of the theosophical society in Hyderabad or other learned societies. He was into money*. In the court proceedings, it says something slightly condescending such as , "was able to teach it well enough for women and children". I think it is fair to say, listening to both the tape of Lekhraj Kirpalani and Om Radhe speaking, that their speeches were not that deep and not very classy.

(Please note, I am not a Hindi speaker and so that comment comes from other people, actually a BK and a PBK).

* For the record, I think it is a great shame we do not know more about his business, technical and creative skills because he was obviously gifted and learned a great deal about life. Nor if he passed his business stills down and tutored the BKs in them.

For example, I propose a model in which Lekhraj Kirpalani and the inner circle basically adopted the business of religion, to the structure and network of Sindhiwork, e.g. using Sindi connections abroad for expansion, apprenticing young BKs through total and tough dedication, and building their own business network, thereby creating the Brahma Kumari movement. Janki Kirpalani continued to work work on and develop that model. Were they taught to do so, who did they learn to do so, was it just their nature?

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Re: Point of light or star shaped form only arose in 1962

Post by sita » 20 Dec 2013

I think still due to the conservative society initally there used to be suspiciousness towards the imported, foreign form of education. For example association with the theosophical society could be seen as betraying the traditional Hindu system. Strangely this same conservatism could also play a role when the these same systems are incorporated as traditional and you receive a mix of the study of scriptures and imported education and this is alredy seen as the norm. I am trying to find under which criteria Brahma Baba is classified uneducated. In the way it is presented i suggest some complain about not being religious enough, that if religion is blind faith and senseless ritualism will be a virtue, but does this automatically mean proficiency in worldy affairs?

Still i don't believe that these stories are neutral, because these people positvely know about the spread of name and fame of the Brahma Kumaris, probably they have Bk friends and relatives, so their comments cannot remain uninfluenced with respect to what has happened after so many years wth the BK, to start from a simple man. So if they would see Brahma Baba as just a fellow of our society, surely they would search for ways of presentng him as even more ordinary than he could have been.

I don't know if the depictions of his impressive personality are due to devotional attitude, but i thnk the suggestion about a gift in business is sustainable. I would speculate further he might have had some artistc gift. Having in mind the development of the cinema business, this would inevitably create some role models. His speeches seem to contain some playfullness and it also maches the description of his charming personality. Outlining some pomp and show as being found there in the Christian culture and taking the point that the horoscope of Krishna and Christ matches we would think in the same direction.

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Re: Point of light or star shaped form only arose in 1962

Post by fluffy bunny » 20 Dec 2013

sita wrote:I think still due to the conservative society initally there used to be suspiciousness towards the imported, foreign form of education.
I think you have to speculate a lot less and study the time and place much more. They were noted for their modernity and adoption of British customs and standards. I don't mean this as an insult, I mean it genuinely. If you want to understand them, you really need to gain a clearer picture of the society from non-BK sources.
Outlining some pomp and show as being found there in the Christian culture
Again, a BKism if ever they was one ... did the Maharajas of India, and Hindu temples and gurus, not display even greater and more stupider and unequal "pomps and shows" of wealth?

What on earth are you talking about!?! Or rather what is the Murli referring to because I know that comes from it.

Lekhraj Kirpalani obviously knew nothing about the Christian monastic orders, the Dessert Fathers, the Coptics and Protestants and Lutherian traditions within Christianity either. Even the Methodists, the Quakers and Shakers were known for their plainness and humility, or even strictness and severity.

Does not refer to something symbolic within the BK world rather than outer world?

Lekhraj Kirpalani wasn't a simple man, he was an extremely wealthy man and it's the wealth that made the real difference. A poor man who believes his is god is just a mad man. A super wealthy men who believes his is god and can pay to upkeep 100s of women can become a Krishna in his own lifetime. The partner, yes, he may well have been a simple man.

Honestly, please study more widely, research and challenge all of what you have been told to find the truth.

Right now, I am interest in Lekhraj Kirpalani's time in and connections with Burma ... of which nothing is said at all in the BKs.

I am saddened by how ignorant the BKs are about their own founder ... and how they make their adherents even more stupid than they are.

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