Baba entered Brahma in Bengal

To discuss the BK and PBK versions of the factual Yagya history from the beginning.
sita
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Re: Baba entered Brahma in Bengal

Post by sita » 30 Dec 2013

The large sum of money, paid to a saddhu was about a sadhu in Varanasi, is that right?

I think Prajapati Brahma here would be equal to Adam. The idea behind is that he is the first man. It is not a small matter. This is probably the same Prajapati from the scriptures whose body got sacrificed for creation of the world and from the different parts of his body emerged the different casts.

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Re: Baba entered Brahma in Bengal

Post by fluffy bunny » 30 Dec 2013

sita wrote:The large sum of money, paid to a saddhu was about a sadhu in Varanasi, is that right? ... This is probably the same Prajapati from the scriptures
I don't think so. I am sure it said Bengal in the court documents, but will go back and check.

I remember one story they told about Lekhraj Kirpalani, to prove how much of a wonderful saint he was, that he paid off one of his gurus' follower's gambling debts!!!

I could never understand why they advertised that. I mean, they never spoke about how he fed the poor, looked after orphans, save the environment etc ... giving money to gurus for self-interested business blessing is not that enlightened ... and paying off a follower's gambling debts at the bottom of the karma pile. Far better than the follower should just be made to work them off and pay them himself!

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Re: Baba entered Brahma in Bengal

Post by sita » 30 Dec 2013

I don't think so. I am sure it said Bengal in the court documents, but will go back and check.
Please, do so, and, please, provide a reference.

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Re: Baba entered Brahma in Bengal

Post by warrior » 30 Dec 2013

fluffy bunny wrote:
Until I find evidence to the contrary, my interpretation of the events is that Lekhraj Kirpalani became interested in spiritualistic things and went to a certain saddhu in Bengal. He paid a huge sum to be initiated into some power, relationship with some spirit, or have some chakra opened. Then the effect of that ... combined with his unprepared state, ego, delusion etc ... led to all the phenomena surrounding Om Mandli, the rise of the philosophy and what happened next. Then he and the BKs slowly transformed it into a religion (mostly to live off), adding stories and changing them as they went along.
This is the question as why we need facts and research. I think the ups and downs of ones faith are connected to this very thought.
What if - God helps us!

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Re: Baba entered Brahma in Bengal

Post by warrior » 30 Dec 2013

The Bengali Guru magical eyes story, sorry it was difficult to translate from the original as it was in a format of interview or chit-chat.
BENGALI GURU MAGICAL EYES.pdf
(53.7 KiB) Downloaded 130 times

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Re: Baba entered Brahma in Bengal

Post by fluffy bunny » 31 Dec 2013

I think this is the one I was thinking about, from the book, "A true authenticated story about its activities being a reply to "Is This Justice" (1940). "8 years ago" would correlate to 1931/2 when other records say Lekhraj Kirpalani started his spiritualist business.

Is Shewakram Khubchand Daswani the partner the PBKs are interested in? I am sorry, I have not time to read my notes right now.
AFFIDAVIT

I, Shewakram Khubchand Daswani, state on solemn affirmation as under:-

1. That I have known Lekhraj Khubchand, founder of the Om Mandli since the last thirty five years. His age at present in 54 years.
2. That I was his partner in the concern of Messers Lekhraj Shewakram at Calcutta.
3. That some 8 years ago, he and I were passing by a place where a Sadhu was saying that he could initiate any one into a secret provided he paid him a handsome sum. That there-after Lekhraj used to visit this Sadhu and in a few days he withdrew from his account a sum of Rs 10,000. That thereafter he gave up his connection with business.
4. That Lekhraj always lived a very luxurious life and is a very clever man.
5. That I know it for a fact that he did not live a pure moral life.

Sd/- Shewakram Khubanchand
Deponent.

Identified by
G.J. Waswani
Solemnly affirmed this 25th day of February 1939

Before me
Sd/ SOBHSING
City and Sub Divisional Magistrate.
Hyderabad Sind.
What is meant by a "he did not live a pure moral life"?

I worked out that by today's values, the cost of the initiation was approx £42,000. If the average wage in India is between £750 ($1,200 USD) and £2,230 ($3,600 USD), that is at about 30 years work for an ordinary person.

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Re: Baba entered Brahma in Bengal

Post by sita » 31 Dec 2013

I think there was another reference about that where it was mentioned Varanasi.

We don't have it established that 10 000 are given to this sadhu. Here it is said that Brahma Baba has had assocation with that sadhu and that he had drawn 10 000 rs from his account and abandoned business. In fact here we don't have it established he has given any money at all to the sadhu.

What is meant by a "he did not live a pure moral life"?
As all the references made are for the time before start of om mandli, it is possible reference of no pure and moral life here refers to the time before the start of Om mandli. If Brahma Baba has been a wealthy man, this would be no surprise.

But we are talking about the early 1930s here, and there was no mention of Shiva until about 1956.
Please, where do you take year 1956 from.

Another shift that has been there has been in Brahma Baba becoming the leader of the satsang. If we have it established that he used to invite sadhus to conduct a gathering, at some point he starts to conduct that himself.

Some interpretation in the advanced knowldge is that Brahma Baba felt intoxicated when people followed him and gathered in Karachi, so he started conducting Murlis.

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Re: Baba entered Brahma in Bengal

Post by fluffy bunny » 31 Dec 2013

sita wrote:Please, where do you take year 1956 from.
We found some books dated around 1954 - 1955 and at that stage, there was still no mention of Shiva, it was still about Lekhraj Kirpalani as God Brahma. At that stage, they'd come to realise some other figure in the supreme light but still thought it was an aspect of Lekhraj Kirpalani.

I think your comment about the 10,000 rupees is a little desperate and the reference clearly infers that the money was for the initiation, otherwise he would not have mentioned it.

As I am pretty sure saddhus don't give written receipts, and I am sure the BKs would not have kept it, that is the best we have to go on.

The is no reference about Varnasi, nor them having gone to Varnasi. Calcutta to Varnasi is 680kms and would take about 12 hours to travel if the trains work as well as today. I think if he had had to go back to Calcutta to remove him money etc he would have mentioned something.

What do we know about Shewakram Khubchand Daswani?

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Re: Baba entered Brahma in Bengal

Post by sita » 02 Jan 2014

Of course it is possible that Brahma Baba has given 10 000 rupees to the sadhu. Why not? But if these are the money he draws before abandoning business, i was thinking that these are all his money, all the money he will be having and spending after that in the future, meaning the money he will be spending sustaining the Yagya. It is possible he has given some part of them to the sadhu, but why all of them. But it is also possible that he has not given anything.

Yes, i think in the mentioned affidavit there is a hint for connection between the sadhu and drawing of the money, but even if the deponent Shewakram Khubanchand thinks it exist such connection it does not mean it exists. I think we should read the facts and references in the light of what they actually say, avoiding speculations, or if we will be making speculation, we can add...possibly, probaly and not present an unestablished fact as established.

Like in the references of no Shiva, it is fair to say that in the materials we have there is no mention of the name Shiva, but to draw conclusion that there were no Shiva is speculation. Yes, it is possible, but it is also possible that there was. Like if you take a book of BK living values, you will probably not find the name Shiva, but it is there living withing the BK family.

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Re: Baba entered Brahma in Bengal

Post by fluffy bunny » 03 Jan 2014

Oh, tie your knickers in a twist all you like ... you're contorting yourself to avoid admitting what is patently obvious.

OK, explain to me logically why on earth they would not mention a Shiva if they thought he existed and was the Lord of All?

The statements were in a court affidavit, not a conversation. An affidavit is equal to giving evidence in court. A serious matter. No, the money would have only been a small fraction of Lekhraj Kirpalani's wealth.

Part of those original documents were the numbered and dated Divine Decrees that they sent out to followers ... not some VIP PR whitewash. Why would they not mention him!?!

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Re: Baba entered Brahma in Bengal

Post by warrior » 03 Jan 2014

Remember that Shewakram was the accountant of Lekhraj, managed all the affairs of book keeping and money. So he was in the right position to say what he said in the affidavit.

Yes, that donation was only peanuts compare to the entire fortune.

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Re: Baba entered Brahma in Bengal

Post by sita » 10 Jan 2014

I think Prajapati Brahma here would be equal to Adam. The idea behind is that he is the first man. It is not a small matter. This is probably the same Prajapati from the scriptures whose body got sacrificed for creation of the world and from the different parts of his body emerged the different casts.
I am sorry, I have made a mistake here, the reference about the casts, emerging from the different parts of the body is not about Prajapita, but Purusha.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purusha_sukta

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Re: Baba entered Brahma in Bengal

Post by sita » 12 Jan 2014

http://bkdrluhar.com/88-Brahma%20Baba/1 ... 0-6-64.mp3

30.06.64....at 40:00 min
"Father comes in Bharat and that in Magadh desh, the land of crocodiles... Sarasvati also emergees from there, ShivBaba also, Brahma also"

There is some reference about the entering, but it cannot be heard well.

Magadh Desh is said to be the land between the rivers Ganga and Yamuna. Historically this has been revolutionary land where people are depicted as different from the rest of India and not a subject to influence. Budhism and Jainism originate there and Maurya and Gupta empires.

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Re: Baba entered Brahma in Bengal

Post by sita » 21 Jan 2014

With regards to Prajapati, it could refer to Daksh Prajapati.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daksha

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Re: Baba entered Brahma in Bengal

Post by sita » 02 Mar 2014

30.06.64....at 40:00 min
"Father comes in Bharat and that in Magadh desh, the land of crocodiles... Sarasvati also emergees from there, ShivBaba also, Brahma also"
This is interesting reference, because if we consider that Brahma here refers to Brahma Baba, he does not emerge from Magadh desh, but from Sindh. Even if we take it that emerge does not meat to physically be born somewhere, still, the emerging of Brahma Baba on the scene of the world, his revelation like birth, his becoming acknowledged does not happen in Magadh desh.

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