Supporting Murli points for PBKs(AK)

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mbbhat
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Re: Supporting Murli points for PBKs(AK)

Post by mbbhat » 05 Jan 2016

sita wrote:"ब्यक्त मेँ अब भी सहारा है। ..(अ.व. 18.1.70)
“There is explicit support even now. ... ...(A.V. 18.1.70)

In the same way in 70 there is supportof theSupreme Father in corporeal body, like be2fore means not like in Gulzar Dadi. Like before it was not known when he comes and goes,
Are you trying to equate 100%? There could be some difference. (Coming and going in Gulzar Dadi may be visible). But, support through Gulzar Dadi is definitely explicit. There is no need to be 100% similarity.
In this point it is said that now in 1970 there is support in Sakar, like before.
Was AIVV there during 1970? It started only after 1976. Actually even later, only during 1980s practically, when Mr Dixit thought there is room to misinterpret the Murli points. So, neither AIVV nor brahmin family was present there during 1970.

So, if you expect 100% similarity between Lekhraj Kirpalani and Dadi Gulzar, is there 100% similarity between Lekhraj Kirpalani and Mr Dixit? [through Lekhraj Kirpalani ShivBaba was not reading Murlis, it was independent, spontaneous. But, Mr. Dixit reads Murli and then explains. Mr. Dixit is fully dependent on what is spoken in BKWSU earlier. Then only he can give his (mis) interpretations. And, it was just two souls in Lekhraj Kirpalani (ShivBaba and that of Lekhraj Kirpalani). But, in Dixit, they believe there are three souls, and one is disturbing in between too!
The subtle Brahma is not called Prajapita. It is also said that along with him there is family.
Subtle Brahma is not (just) Prajapita. He is above Prajapita. He has already gone in advance, and is now in his Avyakt stage, and has become Adi Dev. For example, a person who is graduate(Adi Dev) had already passed 10th std(Prajapita). But, no one will call him as 10th std pass (Prajapita only).

So, I believe Adi Dev is like being a graduate, and Prajapita is like having passed only 10th std.
Post No 147- http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... per#p12911

Readers may also like to review the following earlier post related to this aspect, asf -
viewtopic.php?f=40&t=1217&p=48863&hilit ... %BE#p48863

sita
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Re: Supporting Murli points for PBKs(AK)

Post by sita » 05 Jan 2016

If this point applies to the part through Gulzar Dadi, how was this part instrument before. It is said it was instrument before and now also it is instrument.

= RESPONSE =


1) Regarding the AV point quoted in earlier post (AV 18.1.70), it is considered that this is a very significant point which has been severely distorted, misinterpreted and misappropriated by Ravan or Maya through the 'mukrar-rath' of Ravan, (to clinch the deception) - to enable the 'shooting' of Ravan Rajya in the Confluence Age, (particularly after 1969)!

Readers may also like to review the following earlier post related to this aspect, asf -
viewtopic.php?f=40&t=1217&p=48863&hilit ... %BE#p48863

Obviously the 'innocent' followers of Ravan or Maya, (as well as Ravan's instrumental soul, who is used by Ravan to propagate this reversed advanced knowledge), would not be able to comprehend what Baba actually means in above AV point, owing to their gross body-consciousness - due both, to their inferior intellectual ability to comprehend the subtlest aspects of spirituality, as well as their pre-ordained roles within the frame-work of Drama and in accordance with their governing 'sanskars'. Any meaningful discourse with them would therefore not be feasible, (and would therefore be an exercise in futility), since they would simply not be in a position to perceive the subtlest aspects of spirituality, and would keep on going in the same circles of limited argument again and again - they themselves considering otherwise!
BKWSU SM, Revised 06.01.2016 wrote: बहुतों को ज्ञान देने वाले, भोग लगाने वाले आज हैं नहीं क्योंकि कायदे का उल्लंघन करते हैं तो पूरे मायावी बन जाते हैं। डीटी बनते-बनते डेविल बन जाते हैं इसलिए इस मार्ग में खबरदारी बहुत चाहिए। अपने ऊपर कन्ट्रोल रखना होता है। बाप तो बच्चों को सावधान करते हैं। श्रीमत का उल्लंघन नहीं करना है। आसुरी मत पर चलने से ही तुम्हारी उतरती कला हुई है। कहाँ से एकदम कहाँ पहुँच गये हैं। एकदम नीचे पहुँच गये हैं। अब भी श्रीमत पर न चले, बेपरवाह बने तो पद भ्रष्ट बन जायेंगे।

Those who gave Knowledge to many and who used to offer Bhog are no longer here (in the Godly University or PBKIVV). Because they (PBKs) disobeyed all the rules, they completely belonged to Maya. While becoming deities they became devils. This is why you have to be very cautious on this path; you have to keep control over yourself. The Father cautions you children. Do not disobey Shrimat (given through 'mukrar-rath' of God - Prajapita Brahma, Brahma Baba, DLR). It was by following devilish dictates (of Ravan or Maya, through the 'mukrar-rath' of Ravan - IN THE Confluence Age) that you went into the descending stage. From being so high, look where you have now reached! You (PBKs) have reached the very bottom (WITHOUT EVEN REAL-EYEsing SAME)! If, even now, you don't follow Shrimat but (continue to) become careless, your status would be destroyed.

माया गिराती है ना। बाप डीटी बनाते हैं, माया फिर डेविल बना देती है। अनेक प्रकार से माया परीक्षा लेती है। बाप जब समझाते हैं तब पता पड़ता है। सचमुच हमारी अवस्था गिरी हुई है। कितने बिचारे अपना सब कुछ शिवबाबा के खजाने में जमा कराए फिर भी कभी माया से हार खा लेते हैं। शिवबाबा के बन गये फिर भूल क्यों जाते, इसमें योग की यात्रा मुख्य है। योग से ही पवित्र बनना है। नॉलेज के साथ-साथ पवित्रता भी चाहिए।

Maya makes you fall. The Father makes you into deities and Maya makes you into devils (through the 'mukrar-rath' of Ravan, in the Confluence Age). Maya tests you in many ways. It is only when the Father explains everything that you realize that you really have fallen from your stage. So many poor helpless souls accumulated everything they had in Shiv Baba's treasure store, but, in spite of that, they were sometimes defeated by Maya. Once you belong to Shiv Baba, why do you forget Him? The pilgrimage of (ACCURATE & UNADULTERATED) remembrance is the main thing in this. It is only by having (ACCURATE & UNADULTERATED) Yoga that you can become pure. Together with Knowledge, PURITY is also needed.
2)Regarding the Avyakt Murli point 18-1-80, ShivBaba/BapDada says- like B baba was instrument before 1969, he is also instrument even now.

#Even before 1969, ShivBaba had used B baba as instrument. Even after 1969, B baba is also being used as instrument. He too enters Dadi Gulzar.
#B Baba had also given sustenance to children by sakash before, even now he is giving.
#Before 1969, ShivBaba had given vision of B Baba to others. Even after 1969, vision of B Baba occurs to many.
Most probably, you could not understand what was meant to B Baba and what to Dadi Gulzar in the Murli point. You tried to equate everything just either to B baba or just to Gulzar Dadi.Think the Murli point once more if you like.

sita
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Re: Supporting Murli points for PBKs(AK)

Post by sita » 07 Jan 2016

If you accept that "vyakt" refers to Avyakt Brahma in Dadi Gulzar, it is your choice. Still it is strange that he has been coming for a year and after one year of coming and delivering Avyakt Vanis, i.e. practically giving children support, he informs them that there is support, as if they have not been receiving it for an year already.

= RESPONSE =
As per my belief, the underlined words are result of misunderstanding. Many times Baba says- you children have double engines. Does it mean one engine is weak, that is why you need two engines or do not children know that they are like engines? Baba stresses both, makes children feel both. Similarly Baba reminds - there is corporeal support too. I am with you. Baba repeats many points which are linked to Alaf and Bey.

sita
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Re: Supporting Murli points for PBKs(AK)

Post by sita » 10 Jan 2016

In this Murli point Baba uses the word "vyakt":

"व्यक्त प्रजापिता ब्रह्मा चाहिए। सुक्श्म्वतन मेँ प्रजापिता नहीँ होता है। प्रजापिता ब्रह्मा यहाँ चाहिए।

"Visible (corporeal) Prajapita Brahma is needed. There is no Prajapita in the Subtle Region. Prajapita Brahma is needed here"

mbbhat
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Re: Supporting Murli points for PBKs(AK)

Post by mbbhat » 11 Jan 2016

SM 24-9-73(3):- Sthaapnaa karnevaalaa hai Parampita Paramatma (ShivBaba or God) IS BRAHMA (DLR) DWARA. Yah bhi Baba ne samjhaayaa hai sookshmvatanvaasi ko Prajapita nahin kahenge. Vahaan Praja hoti nahin. Toh zaroor Prajapita Brahma yahaan hoga. Vah hee phir Avyakt sampoorn banega. Vah toh hai Avyakt. Zaroor vyakt bhi chaahiye jo phir Avyakt hona hai. Donon abhi dikhaayi padte hain. PRAJAPITA BRAHMA YAHAAN BHI HAI TOH SOOKSHMVATAN MAY BHI HAI. Prajapita toh zaroor yahaan chaahiye. Zaroor Prajapita Brahma ke bachche bhi yahaan hee hain. Tum sabko kah sakte ho Prajapita jo vyakt hai vahee phir Avyakt hona chahiye. = SM 14-9-83(3)

= The one who establishes is Supreme Father Supreme Soul through THIS Brahma (DLR). Baba has also explained that the subtle Brahma (the SYMBOLIC, REPRESENTATIVE COMPLETE form at THAT TIME, PRIOR 1969) cannot be called as Prajapita. There are no praja(citizens) there. So definitely Prajapita would be here (in the corporeal, UNTIL 1969). He (DLR) ONLY will then become COMPLETE Avyakt. That one is Avyakt (the SUBTLE, SYMBOLIC, REPRESENTATIVE COMPLETE form at THAT TIME, PRIOR 1969). Definitely vyakt(corporeal) is also needed (AS LONG AS the DESIGNATED Children are ALSO in their 'sakari' consciousness; OR UNTIL the DESIGNATED Children acquire their 'akari' consciousness, number-wise) who will THEN (after 1969) become Avyakt. Both are seen now (PRIOR 1969). PRAJAPITA BRAHMA (DLR) IS HERE (IN CORPOREAL) AS WELL AS IN Subtle Region (AS the SUBTLE, SYMBOLIC, REPRESENTATIVE COMPLETE form at THAT TIME, PRIOR 1969). Prajapita is DEFINITELY REQUIRED here (in 'Sakar', AS LONG AS the DESIGNATED Children are ALSO in their 'sakari' consciousness). Definitely Prajapita Brahma’s Children also would be here (to ENABLE the DESIGNATED Children to acquire their 'akari' consciousness, number-wise). You can tell EVERYONE that the Prajapita (DLR) who is corporeal (PRIOR 1969) HIMSELF will/should THEN become SUBTLE (AFTER 1969). [VVIMP][118]
SM_24-9-73_Pg_3.jpg
Prajapita both here as well as in Subtle World- read the line marked red which is 21st line
So, whether DLR is in 'Sakar' PRIOR 1969, or in 'akar' AFTER 1969, the VERY SAME SOUL is PRAJAPITA for the DESIGNATED Children, who RECEIVED sustenance from ShivBaba through his corporeal body until 1969, and who CONTINUE to RECEIVE sustenance from ShivBaba through his subtle body after 1969, to date, giving them the EXPERIENCE, AS IF he is STILL in the corporeal - ONLY the MOST FORTUNATE Children can EXPERIENCE such SUSTENANCE!!!

What do you understand, regarding the latest Avyakt Milan of 31.12.2015, wherein BapDada have clarified the significance of an Avyakt MEETING, while the children are in a 'sakari' consciousness? viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2552&start=45#p50586

Murli points 14 to 17 in post No. 28- http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... bhee#p4080

If we take isolated Murli points, then there will DEFINITELY be AMPLE ROOM for MISINTERPRETATIONS.

sita
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Re: Supporting Murli points for PBKs(AK)

Post by sita » 11 Jan 2016

Dear brother mbbhat,

In the Murli quote you have provided also the word “vyakt” is used as opposite to Avyakt. In the previous quote it was said that there is "vyakt" support even now. The one who used to be instrumental for support before is support now again. You have interpret it to refer to the soul of Brahma Baba who was made instrumental. But can “vyakt” refer to Avyakt Brahma. In the quote you have provided the difference is made between “vyakt” and Avyakt Brahma. An in 70 it is said that there is “vyakt” support even now, the Avyakt is there anyway, it is a different matter. Previously he used to be “vyakt” support, now again he is "vyakt" support.

mbbhat
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Re: Supporting Murli points for PBKs(AK)

Post by mbbhat » 11 Jan 2016

sita wrote:In the Murli quote you have provided also the word “vyakt” is used as opposite to Avyakt. In the previous quote it was said that there is "vyakt" support even now. The one who used to be instrumental for support before is support now again. You have interpret it to refer to the soul of Brahma Baba who was made instrumental. But can “vyakt” refer to Avyakt Brahma. In the quote you have provided the difference is made between “vyakt” and Avyakt Brahma. An in 70 it is said that there is “vyakt” support even now, the Avyakt is there anyway, it is a different matter.
I repeat once again. I never said 'vyakt' is said for B Baba, after 1969 (Avyakt Brahma). I meant, 'vyakt' is said for Gulzar Dadi, - is she not 'vyakt'? And, B Baba is instrument even now. Is not B Baba instrument, even after 1969? Is he not speaking through Dadi? Is he not giving sakash?

So- do not equate both to Dadi or B Baba. One (Vyakt) is said for Dadi and the other (instrument) for
B baba.
Hence, your quote -
Previously he used to be “vyakt” support, now again he is "vyakt" support.
is a misunderstanding. OK, even if it is still taken that way, how was Mr Dixit support in 1970?

"The one (soul of DLR, in his own corporeal or 'vyakt' body) who used to be instrumental for support before, is support now again (the VERY SAME soul of DLR, in his own subtle body, through the 'vyakt' body of DG)."

" ... there is 'vyakt' support even now (through the VERY SAME soul of DLR, in his own subtle body, through the 'vyakt' body of DG - WHENEVER such a meeting is scheduled at SPECIFIC TIMES, which is the MEETING with 'Avyakt' BapDada in 'Sakar' or 'vyakt' THROUGH DG), the Avyakt is there anyway ('Avyakt' BapDada are available to the FORTUNATE Children, who are in their 'akari' consciousness ALL the TIME, which is the MEETING with 'Avyakt' BapDada in 'akar' or 'Avyakt' WITHOUT DG), ... Previously he used to be 'vyakt' support (soul of DLR, in his own corporeal or 'vyakt' body), now again he is 'vyakt' support" ... (the VERY SAME soul of DLR, in his own subtle body, BUT through the 'vyakt' body of DG).

See- baba had said- mostly in 1975 Avyakt Murli (not sure whether Gulzar Dadi had been ill some period) - he may even change the Chariot. So, I believe BapDada may come even in some other Chariot, after Gulzar Dadi. http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... zar#p12444.
If you believe Mr Dixit is the permanent one, why does Baba say- he can even come in some other to reveal himself?

Kindly REVIEW the earlier re-EDITED post, AGAIN, for better understanding of the point in question.

Can any of the PBKs determine from Virendra Dev Dixit, what he understands according to him, regarding the latest Avyakt Milan of 31.12.2015, wherein BapDada have clarified the significance of an Avyakt MEETING, while the children are in a 'sakari' consciousness?
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2552&start=45#p50586
View http://bkdrluhar.com/00-Avyakt%20Murli/ ... 2.2015.pdf

sita
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Re: Supporting Murli points for PBKs(AK)

Post by sita » 11 Jan 2016

In the quote it is said that just like before there was support, this way now....there is a big difference between the support through Brahma Baba and through Gulzar Dadi. She loses consciousness, program is fixed, we come to know when the soul comes and goes, and meeting is for a short time, the knowledge that is being narrated is also very different to the Sakar Murli. It is not in the same way as before.

Brahma Baba was also holding the title Prajapita. Whene Brahma Baba becomes Avyakt, at that time there are two Brahmas in reality. One is corporeal Prajapita and one is Avyakt Brahma. At the time of Brahma Baba, the Avyakt Brahma was only a vision, like our future deity form is also visible there waiting for us in the Subtle Region to put a garland of victory on our neck. It is not a matter of different souls in this case, like when Brahma Baba was seeing visons of destruction, it was not a matter about two different worlds. But it is said that there are two Brahmas. One is here and one is there. This is visible now. These are two souls. One is Prajapita Brahma and one is Avyakt Brahma.

The soul of Prajapita will also become complete, so his future perfect form can also be seen even now in the Subtle Region, as smiling to Brahma Baba, feeding him, talking with him.

It is also said that Prajapita is grand grand grandfather. Not just Father, Father of the Father. And that there must be grandmother along with him. It is said that Prajapita is the one who creates first of all, in the beginning. When creation takes place, first mother is created, then children. We understand Brahma Baba as our mother and Father so his mother and Father are our grandmother and grandfather. In the Murli it is said who was creator of Brahma?

There are points that show the difference between Prajapita and Brahma. It is said that Brahma cannot be said to be creator, and in another point it is said that Prajapita can be said to be creator. Prajapita is said creator, because he creates through Brahma , Brahma is creation.

For Prajapita it is said that through him inheritance is given. Through Brahma, brahmins are created. By adding the word Prajapita the Father is proved. Brahma is name of many, even of females. By saying just Brahma it is understood the Subtle Region dweller and by Prajapita it is understood the corporeal one.

The question remains how brahmins are created through Avyakt Brahma? The family of Prajapita Brahma is along with Prajapita Brahma, not that we are here, he is there. Father is there and children are there along with him.

In 70 the support was not visible, but was there, so there was the need for a hint about it.
See- Baba had said- mostly in 1975 Avyakt Murli (not sure whether Gulzar Dadi had been ill some period) - he may even change the Chariot. So, I believe BapDada may come even in some other Chariot, after Gulzar Dadi. http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... zar#p12444.
If you believe Mr Dixit is the permanent one, why does Baba say- he can even come in some other to reveal himself?
It is a hint about 76. Brahma Baba is changing chariots anyway. In 76 when the Advance Party will get established he will start giving his power there more.

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Re: Supporting Murli points for PBKs(AK)

Post by mbbhat » 11 Jan 2016

sita wrote:In the quote it is said that just like before there was support, this way now....there is a big difference between the support through Brahma Baba and through Gulzar Dadi.
If you want to equate 100%, then it is left to you. BTW, is there no big difference between the support through B Baba and Mr Dixit? Mr Dixit reads and then explains. Mr Dixit keeps on moving from lane to lane (gali2), but ShivBaba had clearly said- the Chariot will not move from lane to lane (gali2) to speak the Murli. And, PBKs believe that there are THREE souls in body of Dixit, and one is sometimes disturbing(but in Lekhraj Kirpalani, it was only TWO. And Mr Dixit sometimes DOZES while giving drushti. More can be added.
The Knowledge that is being narrated is also very different to the Sakar Murli. It is not in the same way as before.
Already Baba had said - Post No. 117 a, b, c- http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... &start=160.
Brahma Baba was also holding the title Prajapita. ... This is visible now. These are two souls. One is Prajapita Brahma and one is Avyakt Brahma.
Sorry, Baba has never said two souls. In fact, Baba has said both are same. It is PBK (mis)interpretations.- See Post dated 10th March 2009 in - viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2009&p=28874&hilit=Jagatpita#p28874
The soul of Prajapita will also become complete, so his future perfect form can also be seen even now in the Subtle Region, as smiling to Brahma Baba, feeding him, talking with him.
Mr Dixit is fooling PBKs like this. You may believe so.
It is also said that Prajapita is grand grand grandfather. Not just Father, Father of the Father. And that there must be grandmother along with him.
I have some doubt here. But put my churning here- post no. 177 to 179- http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... her#p14927 BTW, who is grandmother as per PBKs and how?
In the Murli it is said who was creator of Brahma?
Obviously ShivBaba. But, PBKs can never think of or understand power of incorporeal ShivBaba. That is why they keep on questioning so.
There are points that show the difference between Prajapita and Brahma. It is said that Brahma cannot be said to be creator, and in another point it is said that Prajapita can be said to be creator. Prajapita is said creator, because he creates through Brahma , Brahma is creation.
Just mis interpretations by taking isolated Murli points. - post no 23- http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... ator#p4075
The question remains how Brahmins are created through Avyakt Brahma?
By now, there are lots of hands of ShivBaba and B baba. Do you think brahmins are created by physical body or through knowledge? When the knowledge has already come out, then there is no dependency of corporeal body. Why Baba says- Christians are mouth-born progeny of Christ (even when Christ is not present in corporeal now)? [Because he had already done his job]. Or do you say Christians are not mouth-born? Put here- http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... pes#p12945

Moreover, Baba has spoken two types of creation - my mouth (mukh) and by thoughts, and has said that those who have got birth through thoughts could be more powerful. Baba has also said 'aadi ratnas' are MVs and has said their numbers are VERY FEW. http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... ers#p12911 - Post No. 147, mu point No. 5) - So, where is the chance that Baba coming in Dixit?
It is a hint about 76. Brahma Baba is changing chariots anyway. In 76 when the Advance Party will get established he will start giving his power there more.
Where has B baba changed Chariot? So, far B baba has taken only one corporeal body- Gulzar Dadi*. Of course, ShivBaba has taken two- Lekhraj Kirpalani and G Dadi (but again, this is only superficial - visible to the two physical eyes only, whereas ShivBaba is STILL in the 'mukrar-rath' of Brahma Baba, while speaking through DG). But, as per PBKs, ShivBaba has taken three- Sevakram, Lekhraj Kirpalani and Dixit.[PBKs may even say- ShivBaba had entered in one or two other mothers in a REGULAR way for FIVE years from 1942 to 1947] So who has made ShivBaba wandering (changing chariots more) or appear silly?

So, is Mr Dixit dependent on power of B Baba? But, then PBKs believe -moon(B baba) casts shadow on earth. Is this giving power? - viewtopic.php?f=39&t=2099&p=50604&hilit=moon#p50604

Also- Do you believe ShivBaba and B Baba had not entered in Mr. Dixit in 1969, but entered only in 1976? And, how this was known? Who all witnessed it?

Also, in both the Murlis 1970 and 1975, Baba has said about the corporeal support. I believe the two years(1969 and 1976) were crucial for BKs, as in 1969 B Baba had left, and there had been prediction about 1976. So, for some children, there could have been confusion, or fear in 1970 immediately after B baba left and in 1975 about the 1976. So, Baba might had said so in the years adjacent.

*- Of course, like Bahuroopi ShivBaba who says- he can enter in anyone to do service, after 1969, even B Baba may do that.

APPROPRIATE CLARIFICATIONS ARE BEING PROVIDED (IN BRACKETS) for your recent earlier post asf -
== In the quote it is said that just like before there was support (soul of DLR, in his OWN corporeal or 'vyakt' body), this way now again there is support (the VERY SAME soul of DLR, in his OWN subtle body, through the 'vyakt' body of DG) ... there is a big difference (Of course, there has to be a BIG DIFFERENCE, because one is ONLY a ‘sakari’ Meeting in own ‘Sakar’ body, when the designated Children are also in a ‘sakari’ consciousness; WHILE the other is a ‘sakari-cum-akari’ Meeting in own ‘akar’ body THROUGH the ‘Sakar’ body of DG, when the designated Children have developed an ‘akari’ consciousness, NUMBER-WISE) between the support through Brahma Baba and through Gulzar Dadi (support ONLY through the ‘Sakar’ body of BB was gross or LIMITED, due to LIMITED consciousness of the designated Children; WHILE the support of BOTH BapDada through the ‘akar’ body of BB & ‘Sakar’ body of DG is SUBTLE & UNLIMITED, due to the developed UNLIMITED & SUBTLE consciousness of the designated Children, NUMBER-WISE). She loses consciousness (her consciousness USED to get MERGED, during the ‘Avyakt’ Meeting, BUT, as witnessed in the latest ‘Milan’ of 31.12.2015, her consciousness DOES NOT get MERGED ANYMORE, clearly indicating that she too is VERY CLOSE or has reached her won ‘karmateet’ stage), program is fixed (it has to be fixed in ADVANCE to facilitate the Meeting with so many children from India and abroad), we come to know when the soul comes and goes (we USED to come to know WHEN the SOUL of DG becomes MERGED, by a jerk to the body of DG, which was MISUNDERSTOOD by many to be the time when BapDada actually enter, which CANNOT be known EXACTLY, to the nearest second; BUT, in the latest Milan of 31.12.2015, since there was no jerk to the body of DG, there is NO QUESTION of coming to know anything, in the manner understood or MISUNDERSTOOD before), and meeting is for a short time (Meeting with BB when he was in ‘Sakar’ body was also for a certain short duration – NO ONE SOUL CAN BE IN A MEETING WITH ANOTHER SOUL ALL THE TIME THROUGH A PHYSICAL BODY – WHILE this is POSSIBLE THROUGH A SUBTLE BODY), The Knowledge that is being narrated is also very different to the Sakar Murli (the CREAM or the ESSENCE of the Knowledge related through SMs is being related through AVs). It is not in the same way as before (ALREADY EXPLAINED ADEQUATELY ABOVE).

Brahma Baba was also holding the title Prajapita (BB was not merely holding the title of Prajapita, but he WAS, he IS and he will ALWAYS BE ‘PRAJAPITA’ for the designated Children). When Brahma Baba becomes Avyakt, at that time there are two Brahmas in reality (this is the ‘REALITY’ of Ravan or Maya for the UNRIGHTEOUS children, and NOT the REALITY of REAL ShivBaba for the RIGHTEOUS Children). One is corporeal Prajapita and one is Avyakt Brahma (BOTH are ONE and the SAME SOUL of BB, DLR). At the time of Brahma Baba, the Avyakt Brahma was only a vision, like our future deity form is also visible there waiting for us in the Subtle Region to put a garland of victory on our neck. It is not a matter of different souls in this case, like when Brahma Baba was seeing visons of destruction, it was not a matter about two different worlds. But it is said that there are two Brahmas (there are TWO DIFFERENT ASPECTS of the SAME ONE BRAHMA or PRAJAPITA BRAHMA). One is here and one is there (the ‘Sakar’ ASPECT was in the corporeal world, while the COMPLETE, SYMBOLIC, REPRESENTATIVE ASPECT was ‘seen’ in the Subtle Regions, that too, ONLY by a very few, SELECTED souls – NOT EVERYONE). This is visible now (this was ‘visible’ to SELECTED souls ONLY, PRIOR 1969). These are two souls (a clever PLOY of Ravan or Maya to INTRODUCE DUALITY within UNITY, which is EXACTLY the designated function of Ravan in the Confluence Age, as per Drama Plan). One is Prajapita Brahma and one is Avyakt Brahma (BOTH are ONE and the SAME soul).

The soul of Prajapita (Brahma Baba) will also become complete (has ALREADY BECOME COMPLETE in 1969), so his future perfect form can also be seen (is being seen by SELECTED, DESIGNATED Children, who have developed their ‘akari’ consciousness, NUMBER-WISE) even now in the Subtle Region (HAVE YOU PERSONALLY WITNESSED THE Subtle Region IN YOUR SUBTLE CONSCIOUSNESS AND MET BRAHMA BABA AT ALL!!!), as smiling to Brahma Baba (BB is seen SMILING & LOVING to all the designated Children, including the child of Virendra Dev Dixit), feeding him, talking with him (BB is seen 'feeding' and 'talking' to Virendra Dev Dixit, who is STILL caught in the ARROGANCE of BODY-CONSCIOUSNESS to date, ALONG with ALL his BLIND FOLLOWERS, due to which he CONTINUES to MISINTERPRET ALL such 'touchings' or 'feeding and talking' - including the 'feeding and talking' on the corporeal level, through reading and MISUNDERSTANDING & MISAPPROPRIATING of the SMs and AVs).

It is also said that Prajapita is great great grandfather (soul of Prajapita, Adi Dev, Adam, Brahma Baba, the FIRST prince of G A, the FIRST emperor of G A, THE FIRST MAN, is GREAT-GREAT GRAND-Father to all succeeding generations of G A and S A). Not just Father, Father of the Father (BB or Prajapita Brahma, DLR is the genealogical Father of all –fathers thereafter). And that there must be grandmother along with him (BB has to have his soul-mate or ‘yugal-dana’ along with him, who is the genealogical GRAND-MOTHER). It is said that Prajapita is the one who creates first of all, in the beginning (ShivBaba FIRST OF ALL creates BRAHMA through OWN MOUTH of BRAHMA, who is ALSO called as PRAJAPITA, since he HIMSELF is instrumental to create all DIRECT ‘mouth-born’ Children through OWN ‘Sakar’ body, and INDIRECT ‘thought-born’ Children through OWN ‘akar’ body through ‘Sakar’ body of DG, WHICH AGAIN becomes DIRECT ‘mouth-born’ Children for THOSE who develop their ‘akari’ consciousness and EXPERIENCE ‘akari’ SUSTENANCE from ShivBaba TO DATE - AS WELL as he is instrumental to give spiritual inheritance to them). When creation takes place, first mother is created, then children (ShivBaba creates BRAHMA BABA, who is instrumental mother to create the designated Children, but since he is ALSO the Father of the created designated Children, his mother role was delegated to Om Radhe, Mama). We understand Brahma Baba as our mother and Father (THIS IS VERY TRUE, but ONLY for the DESIGNATED CHILDREN who TRULY RE-COGNIZE HIS MULTIPLE ROLES - BUT MORE THAN THAT, WHO PRACTICALLY EXPERIENCE THE SPIRITUAL SUSTENANCE OF ShivBaba THROUGH BRAHMA BABA TO DATE) so his mother and Father are our grandmother and grandfather (corporeal mother and Father of Shri Krishna are NOT FAMOUS, because they only played that role as MAID & SERVANT, and they were NO WHERE as CLEVER in SPIRITUAL STUDY or KNOWLEDGE as Brahma Baba). In the Murli it is said who was creator of Brahma? (Creator of Brahma is VERY OBVIOUSLY GOD or ShivBaba, Supreme Father Supreme Soul. When we refer to ‘CREATOR’ of Brahma, the designated Children understand that this refers to the SPIRITUAL CREATOR ShivBaba; WHILE the Mayavi UNRIGHTEOUS children are TRICKED into SHIFTING their attention from the TRUE SPIRITUAL CREATOR ShivBaba, to the physical creator or one who is instrumental to give birth to the physical body, who DOES NOT have that much significance as the soul of Brahma Baba or the FIRST prince of the G A, Shri Krishna – as highlighted in various SMs by ShivBaba. In this manner Ravan CONFIRMS the HIRANYAKASHYAPHOOD of Ravan’s ‘mukrar-rath’ who is instrumental to propagate such CORRUPTED, ADULTERATED and DISTORTED MIS-INTERPRETATIONS.)

There are points that show the difference between Prajapita and Brahma (the ROLE of BB as ‘Prajapita’ is DIFFERENT, and the ROLE of BB as ‘Brahma’, ‘badi-Ma’ or Mother is DIFFERENT, hence the DIFFERENCE in the points of Knowledge). It is said that Brahma cannot be said to be creator (‘Brahma’ AS the FIRST CHILD of God or ShivBaba cannot be said to be the creator, since he is CLEARLY the CREATION - BUT the CREATION of GOD or ShivBaba, and NOT the ‘CREATION’ of any bodily being, either gross or subtle), and in another point it is said that Prajapita can be said to be creator (BB or DLR, who is ALSO the Mother, is ALSO the Father or Prajapita, since he is the instrument of ShivBaba to spiritually ‘CREATE’ spiritual Children through his OWN mouth - the REAL CREATOR STILL being ShivBaba or GOD). Prajapita is said creator, because he creates through Brahma, Brahma is creation (Brahma is CREATION of GOD or ShivBaba; the VERY SAME BRAHMA is ALSO PRAJAPITA, who is the instrument of ShivBaba to create the Children through his OWN mouth and give inheritance to the RIGHTEOUS Children & NOT to the UNRIGHTEOUS children. THEREFORE THE SAME SOUL OF BB IS BOTH MOTHER AS WELL AS Father, FOR THE RIGHTEOUS CHILDREN).

For Prajapita it is said that through him inheritance is given (ShivBaba gives inheritance to designated Children through BB or Prajapita Brahma). Through Brahma, Brahmins are created (through the SAME SOUL, Brahmins are created in the role as Brahma or Mother; and the spiritual inheritance is given to the designated Children in the role as Prajapita Brahma or Father). By adding the word ‘Prajapita’ the Father is proved (the role of the ‘Father’ of the VERY SAME soul of Brahma or Mother is PROVED, BEYOND THE SLIGHTEST DOUBT WHATSOEVER, BUT ONLY TO THE SELECTED, DESIGNATED CHILDREN, WHO PRACTICALLY EXPERIENCE THE SPIRITUAL SUSTENANCE FROM ShivBaba THROUGH HIM TO DATE). Brahma is name of many, even of females. By saying just Brahma it is understood the Subtle Region dweller and by Prajapita it is understood the corporeal one (this point applied prior 1969. Brahma and Prajapita Brahma are ONE and the SAME SOUL, that of the FIRST prince of G A or FIRST emperor of G A, the soul of DLR).

The question remains how Brahmins are created through Avyakt Brahma? (ShivBaba creates BRAHMA through OWN MOUTH of BRAHMA, who is called as PRAJAPITA, since he HIMSELF is instrumental to create all DIRECT ‘mouth-born’ Children through OWN ‘Sakar’ body, and INDIRECT ‘thought-born’ Children through OWN ‘akar’ body through ‘Sakar’ body of DG, WHICH AGAIN becomes DIRECT ‘mouth-born’ Children for THOSE who develop their ‘akari’ consciousness and EXPERIENCE ‘akari’ SUSTENANCE from ShivBaba TO DATE - AS WELL as he is instrumental to give spiritual inheritance to them). The family (the SELECTED, DESIGNATED SOULS) of Prajapita Brahma is along with Prajapita Brahma (WHEN THE CONCERNED CHILDREN ARE IN THE VERY SAME STATE OF CONSCIOUSNESS AS PRAJAPITA BRAHMA), not that we are here, he is there (since the UNRIGHTEOUS children are ‘here’ or in a stage of body-consciousness, while Prajapita Brahma or Brahma Baba is ‘there’ or in a stage of subtle angelic consciousness, the UNRIGHTEOUS children CANNOT be considered to be part of the family of REAL Prajapita Brahma, UNTIL they also attain the SIMILAR state of consciousness). Father is there and children are there along with him (Both Prajapita Brahma or Brahma Baba as well as the SELECTED, DESIGNATED Children who are his family are in the SAME STATE OF ELEVATED CONSCIOUSNESS, although STILL BEING NUMBER-WISE).

In 70 the support was not visible (the SUPPORT of Brahma Baba was NOT ‘VISIBLE’ to the UNRIGHTEOUS children owing to the ARROGANCE of their body-consciousness), but was there, (AND IS STILL THERE) so there was the need for a hint about it (hence the question of any hint DOES NOT ARISENO HINT IS REQUIRED FOR CHILDREN WHO HAVE A FIRST-HAND SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCE ALL ALONG).

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Re: Supporting Murli points for PBKs(AK)

Post by sita » 13 Jan 2016

ShivBaba does not adopt. He enters in Prajapita and adopts Brahma, in the same way he adopts us – through the physical body he adopts the one who is in front of him in a physical body. That's why we are called Brahma Kumaris and not Shiv Kumaris. Brahma is also adopted. Prajapita is without beginning, it means he is not adopted.

प्रजपीता ब्रह्मा भी तो अनादि है। आत्मओँ का बाप इन्मेँ आते हैँ। आते ब्रह्मा को अदोप्त करना पाड्त है। (mu 20.7.78, pg.1)

Prajapita Brahma is also without beginning. The Father of the souls come in him (them). He comes and has to adopt even Brahma. (mu 20.7.78, pg.1)

सम्झाया जाता है ब्रह्मा तन से परम्पिता परमात्मा आकर इन ब्रह्मा को भी एडाँप्त करते हैँ। (mu. 11.12.83, pg.3)

It is explained, Parampita Paramatma comes and from the body of Brahma adopts even this (these) Brahma. (mu. 11.12.83, pg.3)

प्रजापिता ब्रह्मा कह्ते हैँ; परंतू यथार्थ रीति नहीँ जांते। ब्रह्मा किसका बच्चा है? तुम कहेँगे परमपिता परमात्मा शिव ने उंको एडाँप्ट किया है। यह तो शरीर्धारी है ना। ईशवर के (की) औलाद सभी आत्मएँ हैँ। फिर शारीर मिलता है तो प्रजापिता ब्रह्मा की एडाँप्शान कह्ते है। वह एडाँप्शान नहीँ है। परमपिता परमात्मा ने एडाँप्ट नहीँ किया। तुमको एडाँप्ट किया है। तुम हो ब्रह्माकुमार- कुमारियाँ। शिवबाबा एडाँप्ट नहीँ करते हैँ। (Mu. 11.1.71, pg.3)

They say Prajapita Brahma, but they don't know the meaning. Whose child is Brahma? You say Parampita Paramatma Shiv has adopted him. This one is a bodily being. All the souls are the progeny of God (Ishvar). Then he takes a body and it is called the adoption of Prajapita Brahma. That is not adoption. Parampita Paramatma did not adopt him. He has adopted you.You are Brahma Kumars and Kumaris. ShivBaba does not adopt. (Mu. 11.1.71, pg.3)

About the image of ShivBaba in the Subtle Region, just as the makers of the film songs did not understand the meaning of what they were doing, later we come to know through the clarification in the Murli, similarly we receive clarification about the trance messages, where along with Brahma Baba, ShivBaba is seen in human form.
I have some doubt here. But put my churning here- post no. 177 to 179- http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... her#p14927 BTW, who is grandmother as per PBKs and how?
Why do you have doubt? The meaning of Great-2 grandfather is that he is Father to even the dharampitas. You accept Brahma as both mother and Father so he also is the grandmother.
By now, there are lots of hands of ShivBaba and B Baba. Do you think Brahmins are created by physical body or through knowledge? When The Knowledge has already come out, then there is no dependency of corporeal body. Why Baba says- Christians are mouth-born progeny of Christ (even when Christ is not present in corporeal now)? [Because he had already done his job]. Or do you say Christians are not mouth-born? Put here- http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... pes#p12945
Christ continues to take rebirth to sustain his religion. Brahmins are only for the Confluence Age. If there is Brahma, there are Brahmins. You say that all who accept the teaching, even if not directly narrated through the mouth are Brahmins. It is true. One could have listened to the Murli from the mouth, but if he does not inculcate it, he will not be called Brahmin. It is said that the whole world will become Brahmins, so they must receive the knowledge in some form, but it is said that those who hear two words from me will go to heaven. Will the whole world go to heaven?

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Re: Supporting Murli points for PBKs(AK)

Post by mbbhat » 15 Jan 2016

sita wrote:Prajapita is without beginning, it means he is not adopted.
SM 1-1-82(2):- BAAP KAHTE HAIN MAIN PAHLE2 PRAJAPITA BRAHMA KO ADOPT KARTAA HUN. Yah braahman sab adoption hai Prajapita ki. To nayi rachnaa huyi na. -1- [prajapita, adoption]

= Father says- First of all I adopt Prajapita Brahma ...

So, your underlined words in your quote is a definite misunderstanding.

How, Prajapita Brahma is anaadi- no beginning- Some churning here- Post No. 177- http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... 927#p14927

Regarding adoption - see- Post No. 179 to understand the contradictions between -
I adopt Brahma - I do not adopt Brahma.

When Baba says- I do not adopt Brahma, Baba means- the adoption of this is not in LOWKIK WAY. It is by direct entrance. When baba says- I adopt this even like I adopt you, it means- You and this- both are adopted through the same mouth.
About the image of ShivBaba in the Subtle Region, just as the makers of the film songs did not understand the meaning of what they were doing, later we come to know through the clarification in the Murli, similarly we receive clarification about the trance messages, where along with Brahma Baba, ShivBaba is seen in human form
.
I do not think that in trance message it is ever said- ShivBaba is seen in human form. Of course, it is said- ShivBaba spoke to Brahma or both were doing ruh-ruhaan. Now, definitely a question can arise- how can ShivBaba/point speak to Brahma in Subtle Region? But- Baba can make or touch intellect of Gulzar Dadi, such that she will be able to understand which words were of ShivBaba, which were of B baba.
It is said that the whole world will become Brahmins, so they must receive The Knowledge in some form, but it is said that those who hear two words from me will go to heaven. Will the whole world go to heaven?
I am not sure of the Murli point saying that the whole world will become braahmins. But, it is not a surprise to me. See Post No. 103- Murli Point No. 01- http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... shi#p12352 Baba says- the criteria to become braahmin is to experience happiness. So, all will experience happiness in the end. And, all will get property of at least mutki, and that also will be through Brahma. So, all are children of Brahma.

I believe those who realize, before too late board, will go to heaven. Others will not.

Sometimes baba may say- Braahmins are those who have knowledge. So, the context should be understood.

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Re: Supporting Murli points for PBKs(AK)

Post by mbbhat » 15 Jan 2016

Just for some more clarity. You said- Prajapita Brahma is not adopted. And the Murli point is below. I have added some clarifications in bracket to the translation.
They (PBKs in 'shooting' period) say 'Prajapita Brahma', but they don't know the (REAL) meaning (of who is REAL Prajapita). Whose child is Brahma (Brahma Baba or Prajapita Brahma)? You say (according to your LIMITED understanding) Parampita Paramatma Shiv has adopted him (whereas PBKs have SPLIT up Parampita Paramatma Shiv into TWO different souls, instead of ONE God Father Shiv, thus carrying out the 'shooting' of HiranyaKashyap & DUALITY). This one (Brahma Baba or Prajapita Brahma) is a bodily being. (To begin with) All the souls (including Brahma Baba or Prajapita Brahma) are the progeny of God (Ishvar). Then He (ShivBaba or God) takes (enters) a body and it is (only) called (but is not actually) the adoption of Prajapita Brahma (Brahma Baba). That is not (actually) adoption (since ShivBaba or God cannot adopt WITHOUT the mouth of a bodily being - but the ACT of TAKING or ENTERING is ONLY CONSIDERED or CALLED as adoption). Parampita Paramatma did not adopt him (as the children with LIMITED understanding say, but He ENTERED in him). You are (actually) adopted (by ShivBaba or God through the mouth of a bodily being, Brahma Baba or Prajapita Brahma). You are Brahma Kumars and Kumaris (NOTE CLEARLY that God has NOT SAID Prajapita Brahma Kumars and Kumaris, since BKs know that their Parlokik Father Shiv has adopted them through their Alokik Mother Brahma Baba, who is ALSO their Alokik Father Prajapita Brahma). ShivBaba does not adopt (DIRECTLY by Himself, without the mouth of Brahma Baba or Prajapita Brahma). (Mu. 11.1.71, pg.3)
or
They say Prajapita Brahma, but they don't know the meaning. Whose child is Brahma? You say Parampita Paramatma Shiv has adopted him. This one is a bodily being. All the souls are the progeny of God (Ishvar). Then he takes a body and it is called the adoption of Prajapita Brahma. That is not adoption (in lowkik way. In lowkik way- both the persons, one who adopts and the one who gets adopted will have their own bodies. But, here ShivBaba has no body of His own). Parampita Paramatma did not adopt him((but ENTERED IN HIM)). He has adopted you. You are Brahma Kumars and Kumaris. ShivBaba does not adopt.(directly, Himself, as He has no body of his own) (Mu. 11.1.71, pg.3)
You may take whatever interpretation, either put here, or the one you have put, but, note that- in all the Murli points, wherever it said- "I do not adopt Brahma", clearly mentions- "I entered into this". Do not PBKs believe ShivBaba had entered into B baba? Where is the room to argue Lekhraj Kirpalani is not Prajapita by using this Murli point?

In simplest words- The first adoption(of Brahma = PPB) is special- It is by entrance as God does not have body of his own. The other adoptions are through MOUTH of Brahma. There are TWO steps in adoption of Brahma, hence Brahma can be listed in both type of adoptions. There is entrance into Brahma's body, as well as Brahma is also dependent on knowledge coming through his own MOUTH. So, when baba wishes to differentiate between Brahma and children and highlight his INCARNATION, he will say- Brahma is not adopted (in lowkik way). But, when Baba is saying about the teaching aspect, then both Brahma and the children are listening through the same mouth, with no much difference.*

And- PBKs believe their Prajapita was adopted through GitaMata/Kamala Devi. - See the first reply- by PBK arjun. - viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2112&hilit=adoption

As per PBKs, God had entered in someone before Prajapita and he was adopted through some other corporeal personality. A big flaw. This makes their claim of Mr Dixit as 'anaadi' even more ridiculous.
Other points have already been highlighted adequately for souls with a divine intellect.

*- Even here, there is room to differentiate. For Brahma, it is his own mouth, but for the rest, it is someone's else mouth. If Baba needs to show even that contrast, Baba speaks - First, it is Brahma who listens, is it not?

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Re: Supporting Murli points for PBKs(AK)

Post by sita » 16 Jan 2016

So far B Baba has taken only one corporeal body- Gulzar Dadi*.
In the autobiography of Dadi Nirmal Shanta it is said that:

"In fact when Brahma Baba left his body, he also manifested his Avyakt form through the body of Dadi Santri, and she became the medium of Avyakt Murli spoken after 21 January 1969. After that, on many occasions, BapDada used the body of Dadi Gulzar and Dadi Santri simultaneously (intermittently) ..."

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Re: Supporting Murli points for PBKs(AK)

Post by mbbhat » 16 Jan 2016

sita wrote:In the autobiography of Dadi Nirmal Shanta it is said that:

"In fact when Brahma Baba left his body, he also manifested his Avyakt form through the body of Dadi Santri, and she became the medium of Avyakt Murli spoken after 21 January 1969. After that, on many occasions, BapDada used the body of Dadi Gulzar and Dadi Santri simultaneously (intermittently) ..."
Mostly it is for small period. Or how many Murlis have been spoken through Dadi Santri?

Like initially, ShivBaba used to enter some children as well. Similarly, BapDada might have entered in Dadi Santri also. Not sure. But, your point is right.

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Re: Supporting Murli points for PBKs(AK)

Post by sita » 16 Jan 2016

Initially there was clarification of the Gita.

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