Can Ravan be considered to be a part of Shiva, in ANY sense?

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Can Ravan be considered to be a part of Shiva, in ANY sense?

Post by mbbhat » 04 Jul 2019

From the post viewtopic.php?p=54102#p54102
which has reference to the SM point viewtopic.php?f=40&p=54100#p54100
Adam wrote:
26 Jun 2019
Can you clarify how Shiva is the Living Seed Form of the WHOLE human World Tree – WITHOUT being the ‘seed form’ of the ‘Jungle of Thorns’ of Ravan Rajya ALSO – which is PART of the WHOLE human World Tree?
1) There are many seeds in this Kalpa tree.

Each religious Father is seed of that particular branch/religion. For example, Ibrahim, Buddha, Christ, etc.

2) ShivBaba is the only real creator (purifier, uplifter), but each religious Father is also creator of his/that particular religion. ShivBaba creates only deity religion (sometimes Baba says 3 - brahmin, deity, and kshatriy/warrior - which are actually like one only - directly created by the Godly knowledge, even warriors are also called as deities).

Baba also says- sooryavamshi, chandravamshiyon kaa property vaishyavamshi aur shoiodrvamshi bhogtey hain = The property of sun and moon dynasties- (the same) is then enjoyed by the other dynasties (vaisha & Shudra). Because hell (old world) is also part (remaining or later part) of heaven (new world).

In the old world, the ruling authority shifts from deity dynasties to other dynasties, and it is practically Ravan who is the cause for the establishment of other religions. Till Ravan enters, no other religion or dynasty comes. And, in the old world, it is actually Ravan who first rules.

3) Similarly, in heaven, LN or RS would be the second rulers, it is actually, ShivBaba (srimath or divine power/virtues) which would be ruling. So, the first ruler would be ShivBaba/gyaan, second LN, then in Silver Age, second SR.
That is why Baba says - aadhaa kalp gyaan (half a Kalpa is gyaan). Even though there is no gyaan/knowledge in heaven, baba usually says- half a Kalpa as Gyan. Because it is actually, the fruit of the same gyaan that is controlling and ruling the heaven.

Similarly, in hell, it is Ravan who is controlling as the first power. But, if it is just Ravan, the world cannot move. Even in the old world, some good thing is required. There is some divinity/degrees left by the heaven (also baba says- the soul battery never becomes zero). So, heaven is actually, the base/seed/foundation even for the hell. And, even in hell people pray to God (not to Ravan).

4) That is - in hell, people follow Ravan/vices/shaitan, but they burn Ravan, and do worship of Ram/God only. So, God is seed for the whole tree, but particularly/directly, only to deity religion, and Ravan is the common seed for hell only (with the religious Father souls being the seeds for their respective religions- in particular).

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Re: Can Ravan be considered to be a part of Shiva, in ANY sense?

Post by Adam » 05 Jul 2019

mbbhat wrote:
04 Jul 2019
There are many seeds in this Kalpa tree.
The MAIN, INDEPENDENT Seed of the WHOLE Kalpa Tree is ONLY ONE Shiva. The other seeds, including Ravan, are NOT independent, but DEPENDENT on the Knowledge given by the MAIN Seed Shiva. In other words, all the other seeds, including Ravan, are ONLY the RESULTANT offshoots of the Main Seed Shiva.

When you state that “the first ruler would be ShivBaba” in Heaven, which would imply that ‘the first ruler would be Ravan’ in Hell, we presume you actually mean to convey that ShivBaba rules in ENTIRE Heaven & Ravan rules in ENTIRE Hell, as a matter of PRINCIPLE only.
Practically, Lakshmi and Narayan would be the first rulers in Heaven, and others at the appropriate time during the Cycle.

Leaving principles aside for the time being, practically speaking, every human soul, in the form of a seed, should logically have the complete PERMANENT record, of all his/her designated roles in both Heaven & Hell within his/her sanskaras, which only emerges and merges, according to the particular time of the Cycle (please correct, if you believe otherwise).

Applying the same logic to Supreme Soul Shiva, should He also not have the complete PERMANENT record of the knowledge of all occurrences in both Heaven & Hell, in essence-full form, within His sanskaras, to be considered to be the Seed of the WHOLE human World Tree?
If so, can Ravan be considered to be COMPLETELY SEPARATE from Shiva, in the absolute sense? Would not Ravan also be a part of Shiva - at least, in this particular context - even if Ravan is connected with Shiva INDIRECTLY only, or in the RELATIVE sense only?

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Re: Can Ravan be considered to be a part of Shiva, in ANY sense?

Post by mbbhat » 05 Jul 2019

Adam wrote:
05 Jul 2019
The MAIN, INDEPENDENT Seed of the WHOLE Kalpa Tree is ONLY ONE Shiva. The other seeds, including Ravan, are NOT independent, but DEPENDENT on the Knowledge given by the MAIN Seed Shiva. In other words, all the other seeds, including Ravan, are ONLY the RESULTANT offshoots of the Main Seed Shiva.
5) Sorry, I do not agree fully.
If someone believes and/or follows at least 50% of teachings of ShivBaba, then we may say- other seeds are really dependent on ShivBaba. Else, how can?
In your argument, can we say- ShivBaba is seed for even animals and insects?
When you state that “the first ruler would be ShivBaba” in Heaven, which would imply that ‘the first ruler would be Ravan’ in Hell, we presume you actually mean to convey that ShivBaba rules in ENTIRE Heaven & Ravan rules in ENTIRE Hell, as a matter of PRINCIPLE only.
Sorry, as already explained above. More explained below.
Practically, Lakshmi and Narayan would be the first rulers in Heaven, and others at the appropriate time during the Cycle.
6) LN are created by ShivBaba, is it not? Unless they pass the Raja Yoga test, they cannot get title LN! So, it is because of ShivBaba they got that title. And, Baba clearly says- In heaven, the property one receives is NOT from his lowkik Father, but from what he/she had done effort in Conf Age. Think over it. Baba clearly says- the property is for 21 births. If it is LN who had been the first, how come 21(20 +1) births have any value?
Leaving principles aside for the time being, practically speaking, every human soul, in the form of a seed, should logically have the complete PERMANENT record, of all his/her designated roles
7) True, Baba says- there is eternal part pre-recorded in each and every soul. But-----
in both Heaven & Hell within his/her sanskaras, which only emerges and merges, according to the particular time of the Cycle (please correct, if you believe otherwise).
8) Here, I would like to differ. It is not just emerging and merging. We human beings have our own intelligence and hence are independent too. We are not just physical elements.

But, we all are ALSO dependent/(bounded by) on nature, our religion, nationality, etc. [There are also clear rules for karma philosophy- punya (good deeds) and paapa( sins). And, a soul is accountable to what it does.]
Even ShivBaba is bound in drama!

But, to what extent, one is dependent, to what extent one takes help from or follow good souls and adopts it, or follows bad things or vices, etc. This clearly matters. Is it not?
If so, can Ravan be considered to be COMPLETELY SEPARATE from Shiva, in the absolute sense? Would not Ravan also be a part of Shiva - at least, in this particular context - even if Ravan is connected with Shiva INDIRECTLY only, or in the RELATIVE sense only?
9) Ravan is part/result of nature/body.

In India/Hinduism the 5 elements of nature are also called as paanch bhooth (5 ghosts). Initially I had wondered why?
After coming to this real gyaan, I got it. Baba says- Maya bhee rachnaa hai. Even Maya is creation. And, baba says- Maya is weakness. Consider all points about Ravan/Maya what baba has said.

The point is- when we conquer nature (body consciousness), Maya Ravan will not be there. In heaven nature is our servant. But, when we get into body consciousness, nature, wealth, vices, then rule us. But, still agreed, the rulers are human beings only; because it is human beings only who can inculcate either divine virtues or the vices or the ignorance said in lowkik scriptures or the scientific knowledge of Iron Age, or the divine knowledge of ShivBaba, etc in them consciously.

10) There are two things. Niraakaar/God and Sakar/Nature. The souls lie in between. Souls even though are niraakaar, they are bound to play role and come in cycle of Sakar (births and deaths).
When souls recognize their niraakaar nature (they need ShivBaba to realize it, hence he is the seed), they bring heaven.
When souls forget their niraakaar nature and get influenced by Sakar, they create Ravan and get caught in their own creation. Like today's scientists have created many things, but are caught in their own creation. Today's lawmakers make laws, but they are caught in their own law as subordinates.
That is why even though it is we who have created Ravan (and hence hell), Ravan is seed of hell. Like in today's democracy, even if it is human being who creates/makes law, the saying goes that "No one is above law".
So, in hell, the creator attains a state lower than his own creation, and the creation becomes the seed.
Today it is actually, piece of papers (documents and currencies) that are controlling and ruling the whole world, is it not? Yes, of course, it is humn beings who are ruling, but they have become slaves of their own creation. And, Ravan is the cause for this.

11) So, in heaven, Master (ShivBaba), the real gyaan and then master creators(deities) are the rulers. Similarly, in hell, first Ravan, then the documents (scriptures, etc) and the vicious Kings (later politicians and science...) are the rulers.

12) Kindly note that ShivBaba gives the name Shivalay (Literally speaking residence place of Shiva) even for not just to Paramdham, but also for heaven! Because there is Shadow of Shiv in heaven. Baba usually combines two words, together- Alaf and Bey, Father and property. So, property of ShivBaba is heaven, curse of hell is given by Ravan.

Baba gives the name veshalay to hell, and the creator is Ravan, hence he is seed of hell.

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Re: Can Ravan be considered to be a part of Shiva, in ANY sense?

Post by Adam » 07 Jul 2019

mbbhat wrote:
05 Jul 2019
5) Sorry, I do not agree fully.
If someone believes and/or follows at least 50% of teachings of ShivBaba, then we may say- other seeds are really dependent on ShivBaba. Else, how can?
In your argument, can we say- ShivBaba is seed for even animals and insects?
EVEN IF anyone has to depend on teachings of ShivBaba ONLY 0.1% - to, then, be able to proceed with one's own teachings, that one would be, theoretically, considered to be ENTIRELY dependent on the teachings of ShivBaba - without which, that one would NOT be ABLE to proceed with his own teachings - hence, in this particular context ONLY - any other seed of any embodied soul would be considered to be dependent on the incorporeal Seed of ShivBaba.
There should really be not so much difficulty in accepting this logic, for an individual with even average intelligence.
Nevertheless, it cannot be denied that Ravan has control over 50% of the Kalpa tree, due to his own teachings, which definitely originate from ShivBaba. Therefore, Ravan is dependent on the teachings of true Gita of ShivBaba, in order to generate his own false Gita, which has control over 50% of the Kalpa tree - we suppose this should not be too difficult to grasp.

You may still not FULLY agree - in ANOTHER particular sense, or context - but, you yourself say that you do not FULLY agree - which implies that you PARTLY agree - which implies that you do agree, in this particular context ONLY!
These aspects can ONLY apply to embodied human souls, and the question of same applying to souls of animals, or insects, does not arise at all!

Which then brings us back to the question, again, below -
Adam wrote:
05 Jul 2019
The MAIN, INDEPENDENT Seed of the WHOLE Kalpa Tree is ONLY ONE Shiva. The other seeds, including Ravan, are NOT independent, but DEPENDENT on the Knowledge given by the MAIN Seed Shiva. In other words, all the other seeds, including Ravan, are ONLY the RESULTANT offshoots of the Main Seed Shiva.
...
If so, can Ravan be considered to be COMPLETELY SEPARATE from Shiva, in the absolute sense? Would not Ravan also be a part of Shiva - at least, in this particular context - even if Ravan is connected with Shiva INDIRECTLY only, or in the RELATIVE sense only?

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Re: Can Ravan be considered to be a part of Shiva, in ANY sense?

Post by mbbhat » 08 Jul 2019

EVEN IF anyone has to depend on teachings of ShivBaba ONLY 0.1% - to, then, be able to proceed with one's own teachings, ...
13) Where is it said that someone has to depend on teachings of ShivBaba before proceeding to anything else? Has mbbhat said so or Murli says so?
Baba says- soul battery never becomes zero. So, every soul has its own minimum level of intelligence to judge between good and bad, right and wrong, at least to some extent without teachings of ShivBaba.

More explanation- Soul battery never becomes zero. It means there is no need of even ShivBaba to judge at least some level. Say soul battery never reduces below 1%. It then implies some souls may recharge 1% to 90%, some 1% to 80% depending on its own willingness to accept ShivBaba's teachings. This 1% is its permanent asset.

Original qualities of a soul is peace, purity, bliss, knowledge(intelligence), etc. So, these are the original quality of a soul by default itself. Is it not?

Baba says- I never create you souls. I am your anaadi baap (anaadi Father). Just think from the word- anaadi baap (Father before the beginning). ShivBaba gives us knowledge and property. WE imbibe it accoring to our own willingness and capacity.
A seed has part of whole of its own tree. But, a seed cannot become tree by its own effort. It needs water, manure, sunlight, etc. Of course, baba says- the part is fixed in every soul. But, still it is dependent on external factors.
Nevertheless, it cannot be denied that Ravan has control over 50% of the Kalpa tree, due to his own teachings,
14) Ravan does not teach anything. Ravan is nothing but vices. But, yes, the way how a human intellect thinks or does some research is highly influenced by Ravan. So, in this way, we may say Ravan math (directions of Ravan).

But, there is nothing like "Ravan uvaachaa(words of Ravan)" like there is "Shiv Bhagavaan Uvaach (words of God Shiv)".
Therefore, Ravan is dependent on the teachings of true Gita of ShivBaba, in order to generate his own false Gita, which has control over 50% of the Kalpa tree - we suppose this should not be too difficult to grasp.
15) Who told false Gita has control over 50% of Kalpa? False Gita says- Krishn is God of Gita, and only a few people believe it. Not even all the Hindus believe it. Just devotees of Krishna believe it. Other religions do not believe it at all.

So, how come one can assume false Gita has control over 50% of the Kalpa? In the later 50% part, each religious scripture will be controlling each religion people, but still not fully. Because the political power shifts from religious power (in heaven- both religious and political power will be under one hand, and all the rest three - nature, wealth and science would be servants(pleasant).

But, in hell, the political power will get shifted to different Kings, wealth as well, and nature will not be as dedicated to serve humanity, and the scientific power today is not under control of one authority.
But, yes, vices/Ravan is common in all these powers. (not Gita- please think over it).

Baba says- When Gita becomes false, all the religious scriptures become false. Hence every religion becomes unrighteousness in hell. But, again all the scriptures have no objection to follow vices and violence. False Gita says- do war of violence, similarly, other scriptures say.
You may still not FULLY agree - in ANOTHER particular sense, or context - but, you yourself say that you do not FULLY agree - which implies that you PARTLY agree
16) I never said I partly agree. See dear soul brother, I usually do not ask anyone - "whether you agree or not " in a discussion. From one's reply we should be able to judge whether he agrees or not. Whether a person agrees or not - it is less relevant. If one person agrees or not- how come that is important to a truth seeker?
We should try to get truth from the discussion, not whether he agrees or not. I said - "I do not fully agree" - because if I said- "I do not agree at all", it may hurt someone.
These aspects can ONLY apply to embodied human souls, and the question of same applying to souls of animals, or insects, does not arise at all!
17) Why not? Because even animals become pure, and impure. The question can be put - how come animals become pure and impure. What is the basis for the animal souls to get permit to enter heaven, etc, etc.
--------------
EVEN IF anyone has to depend on teachings of ShivBaba ONLY 0.1% - to, then, be able to proceed with one's own teachings, that one would be, theoretically, considered to be ENTIRELY dependent on the teachings of ShivBaba - without which, that one would NOT be ABLE to proceed with his own teachings - hence, in this particular context ONLY - any other seed of any embodied soul would be considered to be dependent on the incorporeal Seed of ShivBaba.
There should really be not so much difficulty in accepting this logic, for an individual with even average intelligence.
Nevertheless, it cannot be denied that Ravan has control over 50% of the Kalpa tree, due to his own teachings, which definitely originate from ShivBaba. Therefore, Ravan is dependent on the teachings of true Gita of ShivBaba, in order to generate his own false Gita, which has control over 50% of the Kalpa tree - we suppose this should not be too difficult to grasp.
18) See how contradictory it is. You say- if someone is dependent on ShivBaba even to 0.1% (before proceeding to anything else), then seed for everything should be ShivBaba.

But, ShivBaba too is bound in drama. Then even ShivBaba will lose the title "Beejroop (seedform)" from your own argument, is it not? So, no question of seed or seedform at all, right?

But, already put above- soul battery never becomes zero. It has its own independent asset to the minimum level preordained by drama.

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Re: Can Ravan be considered to be a part of Shiva, in ANY sense?

Post by admin » 08 Jul 2019

This topic has been renamed, and shifted to this Sub-Forum - after splitting the relevant posts from the topic, ‘COMMENTS on "SM & AV points for churning"’, from the Sub-Forum, ‘Ideological Interpretation of the Yagya History: BK and PBK versions’ – to facilitate ease of viewing.

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Re: Can Ravan be considered to be a part of Shiva, in ANY sense?

Post by Adam » 08 Jul 2019

mbbhat wrote:
08 Jul 2019
13) Where is it said that someone has to depend on teachings of ShivBaba before proceeding to anything else? Has mbbhat said so or Murli says so?
mbbhat wrote:
05 Jul 2019
5) Sorry, I do not agree fully.
If someone believes and/or follows at least 50% of teachings of ShivBaba, then we may say- other seeds are really dependent on ShivBaba. Else, how can?
In your argument, can we say- ShivBaba is seed for even animals and insects?
Please be aware that the discussion should be focused on TEACHINGS - and that TOO, ONLY in ONE PARTICULAR CONTEXT.
The discussion should NOT be diluted by meandering towards various other general aspects, or VARIOUS OTHER contexts. By dispersing in various other directions, the PARTICULAR topic of discussion at hand, and the PARTICULAR context, will be relegated into oblivion, and viewers will get frustrated and exhausted, and will ultimately lose interest.
You are requested to FOCUS on the PARTICULAR CONTEXT in which the question has been framed, and proceed with incisive precision - by making an attempt to comprehend the ACTUAL INTENT behind the question, rather than jumping to vague conclusions and assumptions, which would only serve to dissipate your own energy, without any productivity, or any benefit to anyone.

For example -
Animals and insects DO NOT have the ability to receive TEACHINGS - hence they should NOT be brought into the picture!
CONTEXTS should NOT be MIXED up!

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Re: Can Ravan be considered to be a part of Shiva, in ANY sense?

Post by mbbhat » 09 Jul 2019

Some comments are put here- http://bk-pbk.info/viewtopic.php?f=13&t ... 140#p54140

19) few more points-

Baba says- Chadti kala tere bhaaney sarv kaa bhala. = When you progress, automatically others too become benefited. That is the speciality of master creators, whether in unlimited/spiritual way or the lowkik way.

So, some may have direct relation with God. Others number-wise. Baba has also said- "RamRaajya and Ravan raajy is actually only for Bharatvaasis. " Others are not related to either Ram or Ravan as close as Bhaaravtaasis (Indians).


20) 5) SM 26-12-83(2):- Tum varsaa le rahe ho daadey sey. Is Baba ki property nahin hai. SWARG RACHTAA HAI ShivBaba, NA KI Brahma. Brahma MANUSHY SRUSHTI KAA RACHAITAA HAI. Brahma mukh kamal se braahman varn rachaa gayaa hai. Tum ho Shiv ke potrey arthaath Ishwariy sampradaay. -73- [creator, ER]

= ...…Creator of heaven is ShivBaba, not Brahma. BRAHMA IS THE CREATOR OF HUMANITY…...

See here- baba says- I am seedform of the whole Kalpa tree. Creator of heaven. But, creator of humanity is Brahma (not Shiva).
But, the Kalpa tree is called as manushy vamsh vruksh (Human generation/geneological tree- may not be perfect translation) .
Now, the point is- how come ShivBaba being seed of Human generation tree, is creator of only heaven, but not creator of humanity???

Wonderful, is it not?
My yathaashakti (numberwise) present thinking is- each soul has its own independent asset. And, human souls need to put effort to progress. So, the top most recharging happens in Brahma, (and he is the best corporeal as well as the highest medium for God's auspicious work) hence he is creator of humanity. ShivBaba remains detached.

21) Baba usually says- "I am called seed form of Kalpa tree, because I have full knowledge of it (not because I create you or anything/ In fact, I do not create anyone or anything physically). "

a) Many times most beloved knowledgeful incorporeal ShivBaba says- "I purify you, I give you happiness, I give you property, etc", but also clarifies in other Murlis that- "I do not purify you, when you remember ME, automatically your sins burn. I do not give you happiness, I just show the way to happiness. (You become eligible for the property)".

b) Many times ShivBaba says- "I have come after listening your prayer", but also clarifies in other Murlis that- "I have not come as per your calls (you had been calling since Copper Age itself, but did baba come there? No). I have come as per drama to play my part", "I have come to give you fruit of Bhakti".

So, ShivBaba comes to give fruit of Bhakti. ShivBaba will descend only at the end of Kalpa. But, his name would be popular from Copper Age itself. Who had started chanting name Shiva since Copper Age and why?
So, effort has been done by the souls. So, they too are responsible, and hence Prajapita Brahma becomes the creator of Humanity (not Shiva), but Shiva is the seed (Seedform) for the whole tree, as well as creator of heaven (since heaven is the top most one in this corporeal world, and God alone is the Supreme), but not creator of Humanity.

22) SUMMARY:- For example, a farmer may plant a Mango seed, and cultivate it. It grows to a tree or a garden of mango trees. The tree yields fruit, gives happiness. The farmer may be called as creator of joy/happiness, or the Garden of mango trees. But, still the farmer cannot be called as creator of mango seed or Mango tree. That nature is in-built within the seed of Mango.
Similarly, God can be called as seedform of human generation tree, and creator of heaven (happiness), but not creator of humanity.

Now- Suppose say- someone destroys the garden, or after some period, some obstruction or disturbance comes and the same Mango trees start yielding thorns, which then become eligible to be called as jungle of thorns, the farmer is not to be blamed.
Similarly, Ravan is the seedform of the hell, which is not part of the farmer/God.
The farmer can have knowledge of all these disturbances (like God has knowledge of even Ravan and hell), but God/farmer is not responsible for the creation of the jungle/hell.


22) But, here, God/farmer too is bound in drama. Hence cannot descend as soon as Ravan comes (in the beginning of Copper Age), but can descend only at the end of Kalpa. HE has to give permission for Ravan to exist for half a Kalpa.

So, Ravan becomes part of drama, not God. That is why Baba says- this drama is made of happiness and sorrow, the happiness is much more than sorrow.

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Re: Can Ravan be considered to be a part of Shiva, in ANY sense?

Post by destroy old world » 24 Jul 2019

From viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2716&p=54141#p54141
mbbhat wrote:
09 Jul 2019
... See here- baba says- I am seedform of the whole Kalpa tree. Creator of heaven. But, creator of humanity is Brahma (not Shiva). ...
... and hence Prajapita Brahma becomes the creator of Humanity (not Shiva), but Shiva is the seed (Seedform) for the whole tree, as well as creator of heaven, ... but not creator of Humanity.
Above churning is based on ‘human intellect’, and NOT based on ‘Godly intellect’!
See points 1 & 2 in viewtopic.php?f=40&p=54178#p54178
See clarification in the relevant SM point, dated 26-12-83, far below!

mbbhat wrote:
09 Jul 2019
21) Baba usually says- "I am called seed form of Kalpa tree, because I have full knowledge of it (not because I create you or anything/ In fact, I do not create anyone or anything physically). "
NEITHER does Brahma create anyone or anything physically!
Likewise, the points in 21 a) & 21 b) only APPEAR contradictory, but are NOT so; they are COMPLEMENTARY to each other, when understood from the actual context of the different aspects of each point - in their respective correct perspectives!

mbbhat wrote:
09 Jul 2019
22) ... So, Ravan becomes part of drama, not God.
Since God enters a corporeal body of a human medium to play His role in Confluence Age, and also gives the fruit of devotion to the devotees during the whole of Ravan Rajya, therefore God also has ESSENTIALLY to be a part of Drama! He too is tied in the bondage of this Drama - as clarified by Him in the SMs!

mbbhat wrote:
09 Jul 2019
22) SUMMARY:- ... Similarly, God can be called as seedform of human generation tree, and creator of heaven (happiness), but not creator of humanity. ...
In this case, Brahma TOO would NOT be considered to be ‘creator of humanity’, as clarified in the relevant SM point below! Therefore, the example provided by you is IRRELEVANT!

SM 26-12-83 wrote:
09 Jul 2019
Tum varsaa le rahe ho daadey sey. Is Baba ki property nahin hai. SWARG RACHTAA HAI ShivBaba, NA KI Brahma. Brahma MANUSHY SRUSHTI KAA RACHAITAA HAI. Brahma mukh kamal se braahman varn rachaa gayaa hai. Tum ho Shiv ke potrey arthaath Ishwariy sampradaay.
You are receiving your inheritance from the Grand-Father (Shiva), which is NOT the property of this (Brahma) Baba. The Creator of heaven is ShivBaba, not Brahma. Brahma is the creator of the human world (and so is Shiva). The Brahmin clan has been created THROUGH the lotus mouth of Brahma (BY Shiva). You are the grand-children of Shiva, that is, you are the Godly community.
Since you have carried out churning of above point with a ‘human intellect’, you have mistakenly assumed that the ‘Creator of the human world’ is NOT Shiva.
In the previous sentence, ShivBaba says, ‘The Creator of heaven is ShivBaba, not Brahma.’
In the following sentence, ShivBaba DOES NOT say, ‘Brahma is the creator of the human world, NOT Shiva!’ This has been WRONGLY interpreted by you, AS IF you are attempting to put wrong words in God’s mouth – thus inadvertently becoming a defamer of God, and an opposer of God - like Virendra Dev Dixit!
In the very next sentence, ShivBaba explains as to why, ‘Brahma is the creator of the human world’ – because ‘The Brahmin clan has been created THROUGH the lotus mouth of Brahma’ - (and the embodied human beings of the Brahmin clan are the ANCESTORS of ALL other embodied human beings of this human world)!
But ‘the Brahmin clan has been created THROUGH the lotus mouth of Brahma’ - BY whom? Of course, BY ShivBaba – therefore, ShivBaba has ALSO to ESSENTIALLY be the ‘Creator of the human world’, or the ‘Creator of humanity’, or the ‘Seed of the human world Tree’ – (in this particular context) - all of which have the SAME significance!

Above is ANOTHER CLASSIC example of GIGO ( see here https://www.google.com/search?q=GIGO&oq ... e&ie=UTF-8 )

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Re: Can Ravan be considered to be a part of Shiva, in ANY sense?

Post by mbbhat » 19 Aug 2019

NEITHER does Brahma create anyone or anything physically!
23a) True.

ShivBaba says- "Follow Brahma Baba". So, Brahma is(should be) copied by others for a POSITIVE creation. Both ShivBaba and Brahma baba (plus braahmins) have their own roles in creating positive. [also see point no. 26].

So, when all the braahmins are directed to follow Father Brahma, definitely Brahma also becomes creator (but of lower/next level than ShivBaba)

Baba also says- "Samay ki ghadi/suyi Brahma baap hai = The needle of time is Father Brahma ".

Corporeal events are calculated/fixed with reference to Brahma Father or first prince Krishna.

---The 5000 yrs time is calculated on Krishna's birth,
---The 1-1-1 date is calculated on first LN sitting on throne.
---The LATE BOARD in Conf. Age too is fixed as per date of completion of Brahma Father, etc, etc.

When we say srushti (creation) it is about corporeal events. [No doubt Shiva is first/topmost, but calculation of time is based on soul of Brahma].


23b) Moreover, for the new era/Kalpa to begin, soul of Brahma/Krishna has to first descend from Paramdham. Else, next Kalpa cannot begin. Hence Krishna is the first/new man. So, he is the creator of humanity.

23c) So, in other words- The real/spiritual POWER is of ShivBaba, but the FLOW/USAGE of POWER of that power is determined by braahmins, and Brahma is the LEADER of brahmins.
You should be able to discrminate between "power" and "flow of power". Instead of discrminating and understanding the different roles, you just equated both!

For example, nature gives rain, sunlight power, etc. And farmer uses them to get output. Just nature does not give full output. Farmer is also needed. The best farmer is Brahma here, then even brahmins are numberwise master Brahmas.
But ‘the Brahmin clan has been created THROUGH the lotus mouth of Brahma’ - BY whom? Of course, BY ShivBaba – therefore, ShivBaba has ALSO to ESSENTIALLY be the ‘Creator of the human world’, or the ‘Creator of humanity’, or the ‘Seed of the human world Tree’ – (in this particular context) - all of which have the SAME* significance!
24a) If you like to call ShivBaba as creator of human world, it is left to your choice. But, I think, it will defame ShivBaba. You bring level of ShivBaba to human! Guess.

24b)Baba says- when you children rise, others also rise, when you fall, others also fall.
It is deity souls who first fall, and first rise too.
So, title "creator of humanity" title will fit better to Brahma/braahmins than Shiva, and title "creator of heaven" will fit better to Shiva than Brahma.

24c)Human can be pure as well as impure. On the other hand, deities/heaven are pure. ShivBaba is called as "heavenly God Father", NOT "humanly God Father".
Baba says- "I create only three religions- braahmin, deities, and warriors". (Not other religions*! )

25) Title GGGF is given to Brahma, not ShivBaba. Or do you say it applies to even ShivBaba (as you have claimed the title "creator of Human world" to ShivBaba as well above*?

Baba has said- GGGF means Father all, Father to even to all the religious fathers too.

See- ShivBaba is called as "Father of all human souls", but not GGGF. So, ShivBaba is spiritual Father.
Brahma is called as GGGF, Father of all humans/humanity.

26) Even though Brahma Father does not create anyone physically, there is physical/bodily relation.
Every human being is a child of the deities only. The same 9 lakh deity souls of Golden Age are physically responsible for the other generations.
So, the first deity is considered as creator of humanity, hence ShivBaba gives the name ALOWKIK Father to Brahma baba. ShivBaba even gives title BK (Brahmakumar and Brahmakumari) to all the human beings in the world.

27) But, there is no name Shivkumari. Only Shivkumar exists, since all the souls are brothers/souls.

Baba says- when you children are in body, you are like brothers and sisters, when you are just souls, you are like brothers. The brother- sister relation is through Brahma. And, just brother relation is through Shiva.

Baba even gives title Brahma to lowkik Father as "hadh ki Brahma = Limited Brahma". But, ShivBaba has never called himself as any type of "Brahma".

So, to call ShivBaba as creator of humanity, I believe is defaming him. But, if you like to give that title to ShivBaba, it is left to you.

Baba says- baath ko math pakado, bhaavna ko pakdo = Do not stick to words, catch the meaning/feeling.

So, whether you or myself argue in anyway, it does not matter much. Good.
------ ----
*28) - Or do you think ShivBaba is responsible for the creation of other religions too?
[I believe Brahma and braahmins are also responsible for the creation of other religions when they become impure. ]
---------------
29) Adding few more contrast. Two words are famous in Conf. Age. "BHANDARA of Shiva (Shiv Bhola Bhandar)" and "Brahma Bhojan".

As per your argument, one will have to say- both have SAME SIGNIFICANCE, and call/invent names Shiv Bhojan as well as Brahma Bhandar too. And also equate both as

--Shiv Bhandar = Brahma Bhandar, and
--Brahma Bhojan as Shiv Bhojan.
It is left to the individual.

But, a sensible one will always prefer to say- Shiv Bhandar and Brahma Bhojan NOT otherwise.
Because Bhandar/power/root is of Shiv. It is utilized best by Brahma/braahmins, the next level. Shiv does not prepare Bhojan. Shiva cannot be called as creator of Bhojan. Brahma/braahmins can be called as creator of Bhojan.

Similarly the BHANDARA is of Shiva.
[Brahma might have donated lakhs of wealth in Godly service, But, it does not get title Brahma Bhandar. The name is Shiv Bhandar only.
Because what all one gives or takes is from this world only, All belongs to ShivBaba.]

But, when it comes to effort/action, the human beings are the creators there. Because effort comes through body only.
[So, even though Brahma Bhojan is prepared from the wealth of Shiv Bhandar, it does not get title Shiv Bhojan. It gets title Brahma Bhojan only. ]

So- from the effort/action point of view, humans are the creators. From the basic/root point of view, God is the creator.

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