[Policy] Child Contributors - Youth Forum policy

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[Policy] Child Contributors - Youth Forum policy

Post by proy » 02 Jan 2007

I have read about BK youth camps on this forum and I think this is a good thread to raise the topic on as these youth must surely be Laity as they are too young to be BKs.

Can anybody with more experience than myself please give some description, accounts (personal if possible ) and opinions on the subject of Youth Camps? Especially, how does this relate to the childrens' rights of choice? What do you think of teaching celibacy as a rule for children? What do you think of teaching "imminent destruction" to children; etc.?

I don't think it will predjudice any discussion to say I think it all sucks donkeys (if that gets past the auto censor, no offence intended) as my views are already published elsewhere. What I am looking for is more information from those "Longer in the Tooth" than I am.

Thanks.

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Post by bansy » 03 Jan 2007

I don't think they're called Youth Camps but Youth Retreats.

My understanding is that BK Youth Retreats are for BKs under the age of 24 (I think). The youngest I met was about 8. They usually occur during the start of the BapDada season and the retreat is held in Madhuban. The youths are gathered from all over the world. This gives the opportunity for the parents to also have a BapDada meeting and attend classes, whilst their children are given activities to do arranged by the Youth Wing. They go to slightly watered down versions of dharna classes , more on story telling on Raja Yoga, much of their stuff is from the Living Values program, where there is a series for children within an age range.
One of the main Seniors of the Youth Wing is Lee James from Australia, as he is a sort of actor entertainter and also "young" compared to the other Seniors.

What I do find perturbing is that although it is nice for these to join in with the spiritual, but as they are developing and growing up in the material world, the education of topics such as destruction and evolution are probably not explained to them clearly. Do they watch tv and read magazines ? As well as celibacy, since many are teenagers so go through puberty and adolescence. However, they are taught virtues and remembrance of God.

Yes, this is a sensitive topic because I feel it spills over into childrens rights. A parent often feels they "own" the children and if they are a BK, so must the children be BKs. However, I have seen some BK children who are really clear as to who Baba is, sometimes clearer than their parents. However, only time will tell if this stays in their intellect, as they enter the material world by themselves and they meet companions of the opposite sex.

In the past, the youths were looked after by a few Youth Wing members, but because of alleged child abuse cases (as mentioned in the forum), the BKs now insist that the parents also travel with them to India, though once they are in Madhuban, depending on the activity, the parents accompany their kids. The burden is placed on the parents to look after their kids instead. Which, for me, means that the kid is still in the custody of the parents and are not really "free" to learn.

The positive side is that some of the kids seem decent and kind, not selfish or arrogant. However, such kids also exist outside the BK world. The thing about the brahmacharya Shrimat for BK adults is that how they come to have children after becoming BKs is bewildering ... must be to produce BK kids ?!

Anyone who can comment, who is much "longer in tooth" ? How about those who have organised such Youth Retreats or activities ?

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more info please

Post by proy » 03 Jan 2007

Thank you Bansy for the information.

I am reminded a little of the Steiner School my step-son went to in the not watching TV, insulated from the outside world, mostly nice children but with a very different approach to life etc.
Bansy wrote:because of alleged child abuse cases (as mentioned in the forum), the BKs now insist that the parents also travel with them to India
Is it true that the perpetrators of these abuses are still in the same centres doing the same jobs, as I have heard on the rumour mill ( Maybe Eromain can help here? )
Anyone who can comment, who is much "longer in tooth" ? How about those who have organised such Youth Retreats or activities ?
Yes, please, more input from people who have organised AND who have attended retreats.

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sex and youth

Post by fluffy bunny » 03 Jan 2007

proy wrote:I have read about BK youth camps on this forum and I think this is a good thread to raise the topic on as these youth must surely be Laity as they are too young to be BKs.

Especially, how does this relate to the childrens' rights of choice? What do you think of teaching celibacy as a rule for children? What do you think of teaching "imminent destruction" to children; etc.?
In his own Godly words; Avyakt BapDada 15th November 2003 - Avyakt Murli Summary

Lots of mention of even that in their dreams, they are to be very firm in their purity. Not a lot of mention of being very firm when they first wake up. You read the Letter from Child X’s Brother Appendix F in the child sex abuse incident topic? This quote is from God in 2003 by the date of the Murli so I think you can see what he thought or eromain's work.

I guess these are kids that are going to grow up never to be touched, held or embraced, may be even to dnce or hold hands but wondering what the hell to do with their hormones and emotions. It ought to make then good little Yogatronic channellers. I have no idea of what the experience is like, or what training they receive, if BK Raja Yoga really silences the senses. I do agree that the West has swung too far over in the other wrong direction. I wished that someone with a balanced view had had a word with me as a kid, otherwise I might have been an inch or so taller and not had hairs on the palms of my hands ...
BapDada wrote:A good number of kumars have come. Now, kumars, awaken your equals. It is good. Kumars should show the wonder that, even in their dreams, they are very firm in their purity. BapDada should be able to challenge the world: You are Brahma Kumars, youth kumars; you are double kumars, are you not? You are Brahma Kumars and physically too, you are kumars. So, let there be the definition of purity in a practical way.

Therefore, should Baba give an order to check you in your purity? Should Baba give an order? Should He? You are not raising your hands for this. There are machines to check this. Impurity should not even have the courage to come in your dreams.

The same should be for the kumaris too. A kumari means a worthy-of-worship pure kumari. Kumars and kumaris should promise BapDada: We are all so pure that there cannot be any (impure) thoughts even in our dreams. Only then will the purity ceremony of kumars and kumaris be celebrated.

Now there is a little (impurity). BapDada knows about it. There should be ignorance of impurity because you have taken a new birth, have you not? Impurity is something of your past birth. This is your birth in which you have died alive. Your very birth is a pure birth through the mouth of Brahma. So, the code of conduct of the pure birth is essential. Kumars and Kumaris should hoist this flag: We are pure and we will spread pure sanskars in the world. Let this slogan be chanted. Did the kumaris hear this? Look how many kumaris there are! Now, we shall see whether the kumaris spread this sound or the kumars do. Follow Father Brahma. There should be no name or trace of impurity. This is what Brahmin life means. Mothers too have impurity when they have attachment. You mothers are also Brahmins, are you not? So, this should not exist in the mothers, in the kumaris, in the kumars or even the half-kumars and kumaris.

A Brahmin means a pure soul. If there is any work of impurity, that is considered to be a great sin. Punishment for that sin is very severe. Don’t think that it is OK, that i thappens all the time, that a little of this would always be there. No. This is the first subject. The newness is of purity. The insults that Father Brahma took were because of purity.

You can’t excuse yourself by saying: It just happened. Don’t be careless about this.

Dharamraj will not leave any Brahmin alone in this, whether he or she is surrendered, a server, or a householder. Father Brahma will also side with Dharamraj. Therefore, kumars and kumaris, wherever you are, whether in Madhuban or at the centres, the suffering of this, even in your thoughts is very big suffering and pain. You sing the song: Keep your mind pure, keep your body pure. This is your song, is it not? So, when your mind is pure, your life is pure.

Don’t be light about this, saying, “What does it matter if you do it a little?” It is not a little, it is a lot. BapDada is giving you an official warning. You will not be able to be saved in this. He will take this into account very clearly, no matter who it is. Therefore, be cautious. Attention!

Did all of you listen with attention? Listen with both ears open! Let there not be any touching even through your attitude. There should be no touching even through your vision. If it doesn’t exist in your thoughts, how could it be there in your attitude or vision? This is because the time for becoming complete, the time for becoming completely pure, is coming close. When there is this impurity, it is like a black mark on a white piece of paper. Achcha.

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Post by arjun » 04 Jan 2007

I guess these are kids that are going to grow up never to be touched, held or embraced, may be even to dance or hold hands but wondering what the hell to do with their hormones and emotions. It ought to make then good little Yogatronic channellers. I have no idea of what the experience is like, or what training they receive, if BK Raja Yoga really silences the senses.
This problem might be more serious among the surrendered BKs than among the surrendered PBKs, because of the importance that the householders (especially mothers) have in the Advance Party (AIVV).

Although I have never been a surrendered BK/PBK, nevertheless having been a BK since my childhood, I have passed through the above experience and got help from my lokik studies (biology books) and health magazines and books on Yoga and Brahmacharya to clarify many of the querries that adolescents may have. But since most surrendered BKs do not have access to these sources, one can imagine the plight of the BKs who fit into the above category.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Re: sex and youth

Post by proy » 04 Jan 2007

You read the Letter from Child X’s Brother Appendix F in the child sex abuse incident topic? This quote is from God in 2003 by the date of the Murli so I think you can see what he thought or eromain's work.
Yes, I have read all of Eromains work and I admire and respect his contribution. So, I disagree with God then.

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Post by sparkal » 05 Jan 2007

Purity means purity, it is the one thing which cannot be adulterated, diluted or twisted into something else.

We can choose the level of practise and lifestyle we feel is best for ourselves, and let others do the same. As far as I am aware, there is no policy on this forum with regards to yes/ no TO celibacy, it is up to the individual. It is important that we don't go too far the other way as, sex is not all it is made out to be, it gets boring and that is the reality. So there may still be something missing if we ever do find that ultimate sexual partner, though I am not talking from experience.

PURITY IS PURITY, it is what we are, naturally.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 06 Jan 2007

sparkal wrote:As far as I am aware, there is no policy on this forum with regards to yes/no TO celibacy
No, but we do insist that you are properly clothed when they post and have bathed beforehand ...
Although I have never been a surrendered BK/PBK, nevertheless having been a BK since my childhood, I have passed through the above experience and got help from my lokik studies (biology books) and health magazines and books on Yoga and Brahmacharya to clarify many of the querries that adolescents may have
How honestly are we willing to discuss this matter? Purity means no sex, no touching, no thinking of the opposite sex in this context.

I have obviously gone through adolescence. (Many people say I am not over it yet!) But I have not through adolescence as a BK. I am aware that puberty kicks up a huge amount of hormones for individuals to deal with. In the West, non-BK Brahmins are subjected to widespread media and peer pressure in favor of sex and intimacy is encourage which fills individuals minds to make them think that they must follow that path. In my opinion, the West has gone too far in this direction and the influence is spreading and Sparkal's experiential evidence is fair. However, does India, go too far in the opposite direction?
  • • Is it right for all children or is it only for those destined for a high yogi path?
    • How do parent cope with children growing up that choose to be agyani?

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Post by freefall » 06 Jan 2007

ex-l wrote:In my opinion, the West has gone too far in this direction and the influence is spreading and Sparkal's experiential evidence is fair. However, does India, go too far in the opposite direction?
I do not think India is going too far in the opposite direction.

Though I do not consider it desirable but the reality is that India is simply following the West in the same direction -- may be with a lag of 20-25 years.

Frankly, I find Indian parents in the West raising their kids with more conservative values than their counterparts in Indian metros.

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Child Contributors - Youth Forum policy

Post by proy » 31 Jan 2007

I am told that in the prior XBKchat three children got in as members (clever ones) and then began posting about their own hardships. One posted about his parent basically leaving them, another posted about the troubles with detachment and a third posted about his family's issues.

The posts were removed due to all the details in them, and because they were minors, so I am told. It would seem that they had some how met and decided on joining.

Does, any one remember this? Children seem to be more truthful at times.

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Post by bansy » 31 Jan 2007

Just to add, many many posts were removed by XBKChat. I recall there was a lot of valuable PBK and BK activity too there that have been lost when the XBKChat owner decided to consolidate the threads.

Maybe we can set up a subforum for youth BKs, a place where they can share ?

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Post by arjun » 01 Feb 2007

Sister Bansy,
Good Idea. Yes, it is true that many of the posts from the PBK section were deleted by the Admin. I do not know if that was done as part of any administrative measures or under pressure from someone. That was a part of the drama. We have to move ahead.
Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by proy » 01 Feb 2007

bansy wrote:Just to add, many many posts were removed by XBKChat. I recall there was a lot of valuable PBK and BK activity too there that have been lost when the XBKChat owner decided to consolidate the threads.
The XBKChat forum was shut down because the BKs persuaded the people who were running it to come back into the BKs, so this is not surprising.
bansy wrote:Maybe we can set up a subforum for youth BKs, a place where they can share ?
I think that is an excellent idea. Maybe they could share about their experiences at Youth Retreats, or about what it is like to have BK parents.
arjun wrote:Yes, it is true that many of the posts from the PBK section were deleted by the Admin. I do not know if that was done as part of any administrative measures or under pressure from someone.
The pressure was from the BKs, as I said in response to Bansy, they influenced the site and then shut it down
arjun wrote:That was a part of the drama. We have to move ahead.Arjun
Yes, agreed. We have a good site here, better than the old one, and I trust the admin here totally, so lets move on with our work.

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Post by john » 01 Feb 2007

proy wrote: The XBKChat forum was shut down because the BKs persuaded the people who were running it to come back into the BKs, so this is not surprising.
Persuaded!

You mean like the mafia persuade. How did they do that?

Do the admin from xbkchat now post on here? if so maybe they could tell their story, then again depends what kind of persuading they had.

Why would the BKs have wanted it shut down?

Do they want this site shut down?

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Post by proy » 01 Feb 2007

John wrote:Persuaded!You mean like the mafia persuade. How did they do that?
I will ask and find out the details if you want. Well I assume you do want, so I will just ask and post the answer. The site was based in North America, so I will have to email my friends there. As it is 4am there now be patient for an answer.
John wrote:Do the admin from xbkchat now post on here? if so maybe they could tell their story, then again depends what kind of persuading they had.
As far as I know the only stooge for the BKs on here is Avyakt7
John wrote:Why would the BKs have wanted it shut down?
Do you jest, Good Sir? Have you ever seen any liking for open discussion in the BKs?
John wrote:Do they want this site shut down?
What they want is irrelevant. Our Admin is relentless and trustworthy so don't worry about that.
Wait until the worries come to you before you go to the worries, or you could worry about a lot of things that will never happen. Just keep up the positive thoughts my friend.

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