Are there limitations on the Ocean of Knowledge?

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khormozian
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Are there limitations on the Ocean of Knowledge?

Post by khormozian » 28 May 2006

Om Shanti
During some discussions about Gyan with my wife, she suggested that we should ask one of the PBK posters to ask Baba to tell her something that only she knows about herself (or something like that). It stimulated a conversation about how someone needs to translate questions into Hindi for BapDada during the meetings in Mount Abu and whether our communication with ShivBaba is subject to the limitations of His corporeal medium.

I would instead like to ask any of our PBK brothers to ask Baba why is it an inaccurate understanding of ShivBaba and His relationship to His corporeal mediums for us to expect Him to tell my wife something that only she knows about herself.

I would also like for clarification from any PBKs as to where the answers come from. Is it:
  • - ShivBaba and they are simply spoken using Virendra Dev Dixit's organs
    - Virendra Dev Dixit, who happens to have the best connection with ShivBaba
    - Might be Virendra Dev Dixit or ShivBaba and we cannot tell because ShivBaba comes and goes without anyone being able to discern
    - Doesn't matter because ShivBaba and Virendra Dev Dixit are the same entity
Regards, Kurosh

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questions

Post by andrey » 29 May 2006

Dear brother,
Why would someone like to ask questions if he does not believe the anwers will be trutful, or if he does belive would he not like to ask personally?

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Post by khormozian » 29 May 2006

Andrey wrote:Why would someone like to ask questions if he does not believe the anwers will be trutful, or if he does belive would he not like to ask personally?
Om Shanti Andrey
I don't understand the first part of your question. I am not sure what I said that gave the impression that I think the answers will not be truthful, unless it's because I am a BK so maybe it's implied that I would be automatically doubtful of PBK beliefs.

The foundation of my BK beliefs are:
  • - the eternal nature of the soul, God and matter
    - the Law of Karma
    - Cycle
To my knowledge, there is no difference in any of those between BK and PBK beliefs. The part where I feel my understanding is still incomplete includes the precise nature of God and also the role of His corporeal mediums, such as what they bring to the table, how much their personalities influence things, etc. In addition, the fact that Murlis are inaccurately translated and periodically edited leaves the door open for the PBK view to be valid (at least in my opinion).

So my question was quite geniune. I have faith that I will be able to discern truth if I hear it so the answers that I receive from the soul that you believe is ShivBaba will either ring true or not. In either case, I may have follow-up questions.

For your second question, I assumed that I could only communicate with Baba after taking the Advance Course or something else. If I can ask personally, that would be great. I simply need an email address or something.

Regards, Kurosh

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Post by andrey » 29 May 2006

Dear brother,

It is said there is victory for truth and victory for faith. In the Murlis it is said we should not consider ourselves too clever. I was thinking it is never said there is victory for cleverness. It is also spoken about true heart and...genuinity..etc. So your questions should have an answer. I am not going to tell anything new. In fact it is new knowledge that ShivBaba [ Shiva + Virendra Dev Dixit ] gives, but is his knowledge that i will give and it is for everyone, many have already come to know.

The corporeal form of Shiva should be known immediately after one comes to know himself as a soul. Otherwise the soul makes connection with other souls that are not the Supreme Soul. The Supreme Soul is one and his chosen, final Chariot, through which there is benefit to the world is one. We have rememberance of the soul in that body.

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Post by arjun » 29 May 2006

Dear Khormozian,
Om Shanti. You have posed some interesting questions.
Firstly, when God takes a divine incarnation, as per the beliefs of the BKs and PBKs, He does not perform any miracles and acts in an ordinary way like all other human beings, but gives some extraordinary knowledge and power through RajYoga to transform the human souls. So, if He starts reading everybody's mind and answers them without anyone asking for it, then it would be like a miracle, which he does not perform. If He performs such miracles, then there would be a demand for many more miracles. I think anyone can at least learn some basic Hindi language to communicate with Baba, irrespective of his/her country or language. It may be a bit difficult for a person who hasn't heard a word of Hindi in his life, but practice can make anything possible. There are a lot of examples among PBKs, even the illiterate ones, who have learnt to read/ write/ speak Hindi.

As regards your second question as to where the answers come from, I think the first and third option are correct.

- Father Shiv and they are simply spoken using corporeal medium's organs

- Might be corporeal medium or Father Shiv and we cannot tell because Father Shiv comes and goes without anyone being able to discern

However, I would give a definite answer to the second question after seeking the same from Baba.
With regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by jim » 30 May 2006

Dear Khormozian

A year or so ago I was discussing Advanced Knowledge with a senior BK brother. He is a great effort maker and really studies the Murli. After a number of points were raised to which the BKs find it difficult to give a cogent answer this brother confided that he had been told personal things by avayakt BapDada (via Dadi Gulzar) that only God could know. That was the foundation of his faith, overlaid by Gyan of course.

Similar discussion with a BK sister ended with her telling that her faith in Baba Brahma was unshakable because in the beginning of her BK life she had visions of him.

Similarly Dada Lekhraj's faith in his part - he will become Krishna - was based on visions in 1936.

As time proceeds our faith will be shaken to its foundations. How strong will that faith be unless it is based in deep knowledge? - that knowledge leading to identification and then faith in the one from whom it comes.

Many entertainment artists on TV and horoscope people can reveal things about us that "no one could possibly know". In any event one's part is revealed by one's actions. The Murli does not say ShivBaba knows your thoughts and history.

Jim

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Post by jim » 30 May 2006

Dear Khormozian

You have asked some deep questions. The nature of how information is given though Virendra Dev Dixit or Baba Brahma goes to the very heart of knowing the part of ShivBaba - which is requird for accurate remembrance. However it is said - hardly any will know him accurately. If so few will know him, it must therefore be a difficult question to answer - or at least one with many answers to suit the questioner.

So your question must really be answered by you on the basis on your study - the extent to which any of us study will be the extent to which we know him / the extent to which we can become accurately manmanabhav (have his thoughts / merge our mind with his).

Regarding contacting Baba direct by email, Baba email has already been given on the internet. However I don't know if it was supposed to have been published. You can imagine the number of emails Baba gets!

Also Baba's relies are very short, like Brahma's used to be. I recall being told he used to write a few words in blue pencil on each letter. Questions have to be carefully asked to get a meaningful (to us) answers. Those who are interested have many questions when we encounter advanced knowledge. However all the answers are already in the Murli if we can make the effort to study it. Of course only ShivBaba (via Virendra Dev Dixit) has been able to unravel the complexities of the Murli - hence the "clarifications" given in large number (about 900 classes that have been recorded - about 40 or so English written transcripts made) are essential for us to begin to understand what is behind the introductory knowledge of soul - Supreme Soul - drama as given via BKs.

Jim

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Post by john » 30 May 2006

Jim
hence the "clarifications" given in large number (about 900 classes that have been recorded - about 40 or so English written transcripts made
That is only 4.4% advance knowledge available to English speakers.

Does anyone know the date of the first recorded clarification?

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Post by jim » 30 May 2006

John
That is only 4.4% advance knowledge available to English speakers.
There's a huge amount of information in the 4.4%. But if a child is interested in his/her Father then no doubt he/she will think about that Father and do his/her best to learn his language/culture (since they are so inter-related). The 4.4% will I expect keep the "not very interested children" occupied for quite some time.

In one of the other Forums Proy talks about laity in the Brahmin world - that Brahmins are born in the pre-determined cycle so Brahminhood is not open to anyone. I daresay everyone is aware of the flip side of that karma argument - that you create your pre-determined karma. Similarly if 4.4% is not enough, there is a huge (ocean like) resource of knowledge for those who like long distance swimming.

I don't know when the classes were 1st recorded.

Jim

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Post by john » 30 May 2006

But if a child is interested in his/her Father then no doubt he/she will think about that Father and do his/her best to learn his language/culture (since they are so inter-related)
Yes to be able to speak/read Hindi would have great advantages.

Yet my thoughts are going along the lines of Prajapita being the Father of the whole of humanity. Whilst to translate into all languages would I presume be a huge task English translation would be the obvious choice because it is so widely understood.

BTW - do you understand Hindi?

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Post by jim » 30 May 2006

I don't speak Hindi but i can understand bits of the Hindi Murli. I am a contender for the worst linguist award! I find it hard work and I haven't made the necessary effort. I have been studying Hindi for getting on for a year now.

At the right time knowledge will be available in all languages as you suggest. Think of the resources of the BKs themselves with so many completely bilingual (Hindi English) sisters who are used to translating Gyan. And when the knowledge goes world wide, the resources of organisations like the BBC - huge language and media power.

You'll recall in the Sakar Murli talks about - the only language being Gyan and the only business being the business of Gyan and Baba on all TV channels (one of the PBKs points for a corporeal medium - unless its going to be D Gulzar).

Jim

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Post by john » 30 May 2006

I don't speak Hindi but i can understand bits of the Hindi Murli. I am a contender for the worst linguist award! I find it hard work and I haven't made the necessary effort. I have been studying Hindi for getting on for a year now.
I was fiddling with an online messenger the other day and it had it's own translators, such as English-> German.....German-> English. So you type in your native language and it translates your message into another language.
I haven't tested it on any non English speakers to see how accurate it is, but it does work pretty quick.
I wonder if anyone has used an online translator for Hindi Murlis with any success.

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Post by jim » 30 May 2006

It would be good good if it worked. I have discovered that Hindi is very context sensitive and it is not precise like European languages. It seems to me that you more or less need to know what the speaker is saying in order to understand them. Or maybe that because I am so good at Hindi!

Jim

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Post by john » 30 May 2006

Jim I've re read your post
hence the "clarifications" given in large number (about 900 classes that have been recorded - about 40 or so English written transcripts made) are essential for us to begin to understand what is behind the introductory knowledge of soul - Supreme Soul - drama as given via BKs.
You use the word essential, in the context that Murli clarifications are essential to understand or begin to understand, yet only 4.4% is in English.

Advance knowledge has been around for 31 years. The knowledge is said to be from God and his number 1 Chariot, the fathers of the whole of humanity, yet is still, in the main only available to Hindi speaking souls.

As with Sakar Murlis you could say the essence is there in a small number of Murlis, but with clarification surely we are not just speaking of essence, but detail. So really are English speaking PBKs only basing there understanding on a small percentage of knowing.

As Murli clarifications have dates on them I am sure some PBKs on here will know the date of Murli clarification 1
Andrey wrote:I was thinking it is never said there is victory for cleverness.
But it is said Shiva is the intellectual of the intellectuals and the number one Chariot becomes like him and then other souls numberwise follow behind.

i think the meaning was that even if you haven't got a very clever mind you can still follow Gyan(to a point) and have remembrance.
Also maybe that cleverness used in the wrong way can be used negatively and therefore it is not a sure or complete sign of a souls progress.

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Post by jim » 30 May 2006

Om Shanti John

St Pauls - Aldwych - The Strand - Trafalgar Square - Picadilly - Hyde Park Corner - Park Lane - Bayswater Road......

A journey through part of London.

If you know London you won't need me to tell you the route passed by Chancery Lane. Bush House, Nelson's Column etc If you haven't been there for a long time a little jogging of the memory may be needed before you remember.

If someone has had only a fleeting visit or has never been there, an expert in each district would be needed to elucidate the detail of each leg of the journey. But probably someone may be interested in part of the journey only, it's unlikely every area will catch the interest.

The leaders of each religious branch will churn on the subjects of interest to their "flock" and explain accordingly - in whatever language is required.

Alot more detail is coming out now as the souls finding advanced knowledge are asking questions in which the earlier souls had no interest.

Jim

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