Om Radhe (Mama) and her writings

To discuss the BK and PBK versions of the factual Yagya history from the beginning.
Post Reply
User avatar
fluffy bunny
ex-BKWSU
Posts: 5365
Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: ex-BK. Interested in historical revisionism, failed predictions and abuse within the BK movement.

Post by fluffy bunny » 24 Mar 2007

arjun wrote:As per the advanced knowledge being given by ShivBaba (through Baba Veerendra Dev Dixit), it has been said that although Mama (Om Radhe) was good at churning and narrating knowledge, she still belongs to the Moon Dynasty (Chandravansh) because she followed the Moon of knowledge (i.e. Gyaan Chandrama) Brahma (Dada Lekhraj) to be the God of Gita. And the above historical proofs prove this statement.
This appears to be absolutely true.

She was in love, and entirely faithful, to her spiritual husband Prajapati Kirpalani and through her he seem to work.


Without any doubt she thought Lekhraj Kirpalani was God and the "Inventor of the Gita". In their artwork and philosophy of that time, there is no question of it. Actually, they also seem utterly possessed with themselves as being the chosen "Divine Ones". Something we see in younger BKs today. She and he being the Divine Mother and Father. So now what becomes interesting, is to search out evidence from;
  • • the period between 1950 and 1965 to see if, how and when Om Radhe ever changed her mind.

    • And then 1965 to 1969 to see if or when Lekhraj Kirpalani changes his mind.
Can anyone help me there? Shivasena? 1977 is the earliest record that I have for so called "Shiva Baba's" emergence. I want to see it on paper. Preferably something with a date on it.

I am sure the concept was brought out before this but unless I see it with my own eyes or hear the testimony of some reliable eye witness - which excludes the leadership of the BKWSU - I wont believe it.

This is getting a lot closer to living memory and my guess older PBKs. Sadly, I will not be able trust the witness of any older but not senior BKs living under auspices of the BKWSU because they will probably be too afraid to tell the truth ... on the fear of being ex-communicated.

User avatar
tinydot
ex-BK
Posts: 304
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK

Post by tinydot » 25 Mar 2007

Now, every time a SS, Didi or Dadi relates their experience with Brahma Baba between 1937 to 1950, you can ask them directly how they see him as purely the form of Brahma or they see Shiva through Brahma's body. If they say they recognized Shiva or have knowledge of Shiva narrating the Gita during 1936 to 1950, THEN YOU KNOW THAT YOU SHOULD START WAKING UP FROM THEIR BEAUTIFUL STORIES.

Now I realize that everytime this topic was brought up by a SS in her class, something was not right from what the SS is relating. It is because they know what was the actual thing that happen and they cannot say it.

User avatar
fluffy bunny
ex-BKWSU
Posts: 5365
Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: ex-BK. Interested in historical revisionism, failed predictions and abuse within the BK movement.

Post by fluffy bunny » 25 Mar 2007

tinydot wrote:Now, every time a SS, Didi or Dadi relates their experience with Brahma Baba between 1937 to 1950, you can ask them directly how they see him as purely the form of Brahma or they see Shiva through Brahma's body. If they say they recognized Shiva or have knowledge of Shiva narrating the Gita during 1936 to 1950, THEN YOU KNOW THAT YOU SHOULD START WAKING UP FROM THEIR BEAUTIFUL STORIES.
Yes, ask them about the beautiful handpainted posters of The Tree with a border of flowers that have no mention of Shiva 'when, why and how' the philosophy was changed, or why Shiva was not mentioned up until at least 1950. At some point they must of sat down and decided on a "party line"

But, you know tinydot, what I am waiting for is to Dadi Janki to just dismiss this all with one wave of her hand, "be stable in Drama ... Baba is just testing you" and Jayanti to prepare some quiet spoken, intellectual defence about how "spirituality is always evolving", and the BKs ust continue to sit there and it go right over their heads.

Om Radhe was Mrs Lekhraj's cousins's daughter.

User avatar
alladin
Friends and family of
Posts: 718
Joined: 27 Feb 2007

Mama's biography

Post by alladin » 25 Mar 2007

By the way, some of you may be aware that the feminine version of ADI DEV , that is Mama's life story, is available. I heard it's a nice book to read, I will also get it one day. Must be interesting.

User avatar
fluffy bunny
ex-BKWSU
Posts: 5365
Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: ex-BK. Interested in historical revisionism, failed predictions and abuse within the BK movement.

Re: Mama's biography

Post by fluffy bunny » 25 Mar 2007

alladin wrote:By the way, some of you may be aware that the feminine version of ADI DEV , that is Mama's life story, is available. I heard it's a nice book to read, I will also get it one day. Must be interesting.
Is it fictational or a biography? What is the title? It would be very interesting to cross reference it.

User avatar
bansy
Posts: 1643
Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK

Post by bansy » 25 Mar 2007

There are two English books about Mama, the first is "Adi Devi - Jagadamba Saraswati", published October 2004 and with the BKWSU Copyright. Another small book the size of 2 CD cases called "Memories of Mama" also published in October 2004 with the BKWSU Copyright, and is based on the first one.

It is a compilation from Dadis, Dadas and Seniors with their experiences with Mama. Lots of "Mama used to...", "Mama had...", "Mama was...", "Mama never...." etc commentaries.

Actually, I've not read them yet, just skimmed. Maybe because I've not yet understood what her role is in the Yayga since she left her body in 1965, or what her role is now. There is enough for me to try to understand who is the Father. The book seems to appear a bit "Mama worship", but could be useful to learn about some Yagya history and to get to know who is who if you want to work your way up.

(I think the Hindi title is ""Yagya Mata - Jagadamba Saraswati", someone can confirm this)

User avatar
arjun
PBK
Posts: 11569
Joined: 01 May 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: PBK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: To exchange views with past and present members of BKWSU and its splinter groups.
Location: India

Post by arjun » 25 Mar 2007

ex-l wrote:1977 is the earliest record that I have for so called "Shiva Baba's" emergence. I want to see it on paper. Preferably something with a date on it.
PBKs believe that the Sakar Murlis which we get from the BKs in revised form today were narrated between 1951 to Jan, 1969 when the BKs shifted their base from Pakistan to India. And it is during this period only that ShivBaba must have emerged. The BKs had published two revised Sakar Murlis, dated 31.12.05, in which they had given the original date of narration of Murlis as 1951. So, one could know from that Murli whether ShivBaba has been mentioned in it or not. I will try to check my records and intimate. But most of the original Sakar Murlis available with dates of pre-1969 period do mention ShivBaba. So the emergence of the word 'ShivBaba' is definitely not from 1977 but much before that.

What is more interesting to me is that when the word 'Prajapati' was actually used in the 1940s, then how did it disappear during the 1950s and then return in the late 1960s. A couple of the original pictures published by the BKs during 1950s mention the name of the organization as BKIVV, but in some of the pictures published in the 1960s the name of the organization was mentioned as PBKIVV. And the word 'Prajapati' also got changed to 'Prajapita'.

Regards,
OGS,
Arju

User avatar
arjun
PBK
Posts: 11569
Joined: 01 May 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: PBK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: To exchange views with past and present members of BKWSU and its splinter groups.
Location: India

Post by arjun » 25 Mar 2007

Om Shanti. In the book titled 'Jeevan ko paltaaney vaali ek adbhut jeevan kahani' in the chapter on the earliest days of the Yagya, i.e. Om Mandali, while writing about her experiences and the tortures faced by her, Gangey Dadi of Kanpur writes:

"Ab hamaarey lokik sambandhiyon ko ham par bahut gussa (krodh) tha. Ham 'Om Mandali' say Ishwariya gyaan kay jo likhi panney ley aati thi, jinhay ki ham 'Vani' ya 'Murli' kahtee thi, mujhey na padhney detey."

"Now my lokik relatives were very angry with me. They did not used to allow me to read the written papers of Godly knowledge that I used to bring from Om Mandali, which we called 'Vani' or 'Murli'."


It would be interesting if any of the Dadis or old BKs have preserved such of those papers that used to be issued from Om Mandali to such sisters or mothers in bondages.

But the same chapter says that the worldly people used to see the body of ordinary Dada Lekhraj, but they were unable to see the Supreme Father Shiv within the body of Dada Lekhraj. If this statement is true then there should have been mention of Shiv in the documents/papers issued during the pre-1950 period of Yagya.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

User avatar
fluffy bunny
ex-BKWSU
Posts: 5365
Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: ex-BK. Interested in historical revisionism, failed predictions and abuse within the BK movement.

Post by fluffy bunny » 26 Mar 2007

This is Om Radhe writing before August 1939, 7 years after Lekhraj Kirpalani started his satsangs
Om Radhe wrote:and yet for the members of the Tribunal after showering abuses on he who is our accepted "Gyan Father" [Lekhraj Kirpalani] to say that he knows nothing of religion is a sacrilege and traversity of truth. They have further shown their complete ignorance and perversity of mind by commenting on the so called "Cult" of the founder of the Om Mandli. If they had the least idea of Hindu religion, and Philosophy they would not have manifested such ill-baked and ill-conceived ideas. A man canot be God and a woman cannot be a deity unless he or she is free from the 5 vices. Let me explain better.

There are 3 kinds of Person in this world, the Illiterates, the Literates and those who have self realised. "Illiterates" are those who are devoid of Braham Vidya or spiritual education. They also do not possess any 'Raja Vidya' for self maintenance. "Literates" are those who have 'Raja Vidya' and are well versed in various arts and sciences; but they use their knowledge of science inthe preparation of gases, bombs, and other paraphernalia of war for the destruction of man-kind. One who has self realised has known Godhood within him. He talks no evil, sees no evil, hears no evil and does no evil. He has realised the significance of 'Aham Atma' 'Aham Braham Asmi'. He is free from the five vices which are the deadliest enemies of man-kind viz; passion, anger, avarice, attachment and pride. The three kinds of persons are described in Gita as 'Tamao-guni', 'Rajoguni' and "Satoguni'.

All the inmates of the Om Mandli are expected to belong to the Satoguni -- the highest class. They are very happy and ever-satisfied. It is said 'Braham Gyani Ap Parameshwara' i.e. a 'Braham Gyani' is God or 'Parameshwar' himself. All the inmates of the Om Mandali are 'Braham Neshti', Brahmam Sarotri and Celibates. They conduct the 'Gyan-Yagya' (Gyan Sacrifice) without the least desire of return. Divine Knowledge or 'Braham-Vidya' is given free. In such 'Gyan-Yagya' obstructions come and go but they only add to its success. A 'Braham Nesti' can help revealing 'Atma' or Supreme Self. This immortal knowledge was given in the past by Father Krishna who had the Crown of Supreme Light. The essence of all Vedas is "Om Tat Sat, Aham Braham Asmi". The knowledge of 'Om Tat Sat' is simple yet supreme. All other knowledge is empty and useless.

He who self realises is a real moral man. He alone can help one to conquer the wandering mind and thoughts and convery peace and composure by his melodious speech and sweet magnetic looks giving Divine Insight. For conquering illusionary Maya and the five vices and getting 'Atma-Swaraj' the guidance of a 'Braham Neshti' is indispensible. Om Mandli liberates one form meaning-less worldly manners, mannerism and hypocrisy and useless and unnecessary family traditions and leads him to Supreme Silence, Supreme Light and Supreme Happiness. Father Krishna says, 'who ever gives immortal 'Gyan' like me in a moment and gives 'Divya Drashti' or 'Swa-Darshan' like Me and leads to 'Didar' (as is stated in Gita Chapter 11) he is 'Myself' though in different places and at different times.
I would appreciate interpretation of the classic Hindu concepts used here.

User avatar
alladin
Friends and family of
Posts: 718
Joined: 27 Feb 2007

persuasion

Post by alladin » 26 Mar 2007

It'd be wise to watch out for those who have "melodious speech and sweet magnetic looks giving Divine Insight."

User avatar
fluffy bunny
ex-BKWSU
Posts: 5365
Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: ex-BK. Interested in historical revisionism, failed predictions and abuse within the BK movement.

Re: persuasion

Post by fluffy bunny » 26 Mar 2007

alladin wrote:It'd be wise to watch out for those who have "melodious speech and sweet magnetic looks giving Divine Insight."
Its hypnotism ... and they were accused of it, and being a cult, back in the 1930s, never mind 80s or 90s. For melodious, read modulating a la hypnotism and NLP (... my working theory).

User avatar
abrahma kumar
Friends and family of
Posts: 1133
Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK
Contact:

Re: persuasion

Post by abrahma kumar » 26 Mar 2007

ex-l wrote:Its hypnotism ... and they were accused of it, and being a cult, back in the 1930s, never mind 80s or 90s. For melodious, read modulating a la hypnotism and NLP (... my working theory).
Very good points and I will confess that many, many times I wondered if this God-given facility I sometimes manifest with words made me a good operative for the BKWSU. I grew up for a part of my life in a part of the world where political orators were often eventually proven to be cunning deceivers and fraudsters on the make. And so whilst in Gyan many, many times i asked God why was it that the soul conveyed such conviction when it spoke? Was it a sign that one day I would be able to fully walk the way of the words that i spoke? Was it more in anticipation of the victory that would one day be mine rather than the actual current taste of the fully ripened fruit of my efforts? Was it God's way of using me as an instrument to inspire others to keep rising no matter what?

And so after a while I started to train myself to be gentle whenever I spoke. To take care to listen to others when they spoke. Not to be so forthright in my expression that it might alienate others from their own journey. Alas, all these efforts still find me a work in progress.

I thank whoever it was had the foresight to initiate this topic - it is one that may lead us to understand the ideal BKWSU 'operatives'. Are the Seniors adept at spotting these talents?

Or is it that Shiva soul getting his thing done by any means necessary?

User avatar
fluffy bunny
ex-BKWSU
Posts: 5365
Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: ex-BK. Interested in historical revisionism, failed predictions and abuse within the BK movement.

Re: persuasion

Post by fluffy bunny » 27 Mar 2007

If you want to start at the same place as I have, then I encourage you to gain access to a copy of;
  • • 'Is this Justice? Being an account of the founding of the Om Mandli & the Om Nivas and their suppression, by application of the Criminal Law Amendment Act of 1908' by Om Radhe, 1939. ASIN:B00089UWHE
I have been kindly given access to a copy but it is not mine and so I cannot lend it out. From this you will be able to find specific dates, names, newspaper articles and reference to existent court papers.

I am absolutely sure that the BKWSU must hold copies and so if you have good relationships with a local Brahma-kumaris' Raja Yoga centers, I would request a copy from the "university's lending library" place it beside Adi Dev and a few Murlis, and start correlating them. Let us know how your request gets on. You might also ask them why you have never been told about this book (... and ask yourself why it took a dirty, filthy, fallen, vice-ridden, lower than the lowest of the low Shudra intellect like mine to pull it out).

What I underline is that this report is widely at variance with the PR version of the Yagya's history and both cannot be true. Please note that Om Radhe was the vice-president and then president of the Om Mandli and we were told the number 2 soul in the world. Your Mama.

As I said, she states that Lekhraj Kirpalani retired and the satsangs started in 1932 (no mention of Shiva). By 1977, official spokesman of the BKWSU, Jagdish Chander, writes that Lekhraj Kirpalani was 55 ... or "possibly nearly 60" ... in 1936 (to match Murlis that says God comes when the Chariot is 60). So that would make him 51 to 55 when he retired and started the satsangs.So what was he doing for 4 or 5 years and when did "God Shiva" arrive on the scene. I have no evidence of God Shiva and I am up to 1950 so far. There might be some, I hope there is ... but I cant see. So where is it? Its a bit of a mess that needs sorting out.

There can only be one objective truth. It is merely Hinduism if there are many pluralistic truth. Or a lie. If it is a lie, then they are the People of the Lie.
Abrahma Kumar wrote:I thank whoever it was had the foresight to initiate this topic - it is one that may lead us to understand the ideal BKWSU 'operatives'.
It is remarkable that after a couple of year of xBKChat and then this forum a number of different folk come to a conclusion that some approximately hypnotic element is being used, then we discover the same question was being asked back in 1930s, then we read of some business dragon on a TV show when confronted by the Relaxkids BK freaking out because he thought he was being hypnotised. Of course, BKs would argue that it is just the influence of Om Shanti consciousness.

I would underline that although I am exploring this idea, my framework does not exclue some supernatural involvement - AS WELL. My feeling is that what has "come down to earth" has to use the "tools and techniques" of earth to achieve their or its end. I think that what the many and varied reports on this forum show, is that within BK life there is an emphasis on external control and modulation of one's, and the organization's, expression that is designed and has a strong effect on others. It is a means to an end, Yukti not reality, that does not necessarily reflect the inside.

I am also asking if we are just replaying someone else "movie", i.e. the psychic impression of the powerful trauma the old man and all those pubescent young Hindu girls and repressed wives suffered back in Karachi, 1938, a movie that has been invested in and beaten like a drum, repetitively, to create a ripple and a wave throughout all of the world. It is modern myth making on top of ancient archetypes. (Jeez this stuff is deep, I wish I thought someone else was reading it, interested, and it had wider value).

Regarding "control of expression", f or example, if we examine Jayanti's psychic and communicative gifts against a number of other reports of sharpness and unjust temper then correlate that with Dr John Walliss report of obstinate, angry, irate interactions with high level BKWSU representatives in India when he innocently went to explore the PBKs, the PBK beatings and the attacks on the Wikipedia by representative Western BKs from different nations. What is the wider picture we receive?

There is a high degree of control around the external projection of the BKWSU and individual BK are heavily streamed and schooled to project a corporate image, Shiva's drum beat, but cracks do appear and other the suppressed elements undoubtedly do come out. The untold examples of BK sexual expression being one area that I have actually held back from exploring.
  • And now all this mess about the factual events of the history
Another academic, I cant remember if it was John Walliss, Julia Howell or Lawrence Babbs - all of whose work on the BKs you should try and read - documented that despite the external revisions, at the core the BKs remained "unreformed, unchanged, unrepented". (If I fall over the exact quote I will note it). We know this to be true. The Murlis are still, pretty much the same, and the real attitudes of the SS - the senior sisters - and most of "India", the vast bulk of "BK", are still fundamentalistic.

I personally would hazzard a guess that the Dadi and Didis still "Remember God" in exactly the same way that they did in the 1940s and 50s ... that is via a love affair with their Om Baba; Lekhraj Kirpalani. Hence Janki Kirpalani and the trance lights.

Reading these letters and books by Om Radhe, I see very, very similar traits and attitudes that have been replicated and continued to this day through the BKWSU.

rocksanne
Friends and family of
Posts: 10
Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK
Location: Earth

Om Radhe

Post by rocksanne » 27 Mar 2007

This is such an interesting topic, i.e. the actual history of the Yagya. We have listened to a lot of fairy stories for a long time from the SS and I always found Mama to be an unbelievable character. These extracts that you have found ex-1 are very revealing.

Does anyone know what happened to Brahma Baba's wife? It seems that she did not rank very highly as a BK. She must have been a bit put out by Mama being the Co leader.

I must say in retrospect I cannot believe I used to listen to all the early stories and believe them.

Rocksanne

User avatar
john
Reforming BK
Posts: 1606
Joined: 03 May 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK
Location: UK

Post by john » 27 Mar 2007

After some time, Dada had to go to Kashmir along with his family. In his absence, he had entrusted the entire responsibility of running the Gita Satsang to Om Radhe and she discharged the same with admirable success and popularity. One day, when Om Radhe was humming the sound of "Om", Gopi went into a trance, had a divine vision of Sri Krishna and began to dance in joyous radiance. That was the first divine vision in a state of trance in the Satsang. Later, several others had such an experience.
Gopi was Om Radhe's younger sister.

The practise in the early days was:
Both at the start and at the end of the Gita Satsang, Dada used to articulate the humming sound of “Om,” in such a mystic manner that it produced a celestial vibration in the physical body. The listeners experienced that they were the soul, as distinct from the physical body.
Rocksanne wrote:Does anyone know what happened to Brahma Baba's wife? It seems that she did not rank very highly as a BK. She must have been a bit put out by Mama being the Co leader.
Quote from Adi Dev chapter on Om Radhe;
Before Om Radhe started coming to the satsang, or had ever met Brahma Baba, her presence had been pre-cognised. Once in a vision Jashadaji, Baba's wife, experienced that Radhe would be Empress Lakshmi in the future and that she, Jashoda, would give her the Kingdom.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests