Om Radhe (Mama) and her writings

To discuss the BK and PBK versions of the factual Yagya history from the beginning.
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Post by fluffy bunny » 27 Mar 2007

John wrote:The practise in the early days was:
They used to sing bhajans (or devotional songs) together. It says here, three. Also, what I asked once along time ago; the 10 pm to bed, get up for 4 am routine was set by 1938/39 even for the kids.
Rocksanne wrote:Does anyone know what happened to Brahma Baba's wife? It seems that she did not rank very highly as a BK. She must have been a bit put out by Mama being the Co leader.
It was reported on the forum not so long ago that she was living a quiet and retired life in one of the BK Raja Yoga centers, I think the contributor said 'Calcutta' which would make sense due to the family connection there. Her name was Jasoda ('ji' is a salutation that means great) she was 45 and lived in Om Nivas, the school property at the beginning.

Mama's mother or relative must have been involved; Rochan Pokardas Rajwani aged 45. The addresses match. Possibly the other might have been Gopi Pokardas Mahbubani aged 18. But the address do not match. There were other gopis. Does anyone have a list of names the original "jewels"?

The original house they met in was named after Jasoda, 'Jasoda Nivas'. You would have thought by the theory that remember him, especially as his photo is in every BK Raja Yoga center would have been easy. And yet she never became a Dadi-type. There must be more to success as a career BK than just rememberence.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 28 Mar 2007

Arjun asked to see an original copy, here it is;

Here you see clearly "number two soul in the world" Om Radhe, stating that God takes incarnation in all 4 ages, or "passes through the four stages", underlining their belief that Brahma (Lekhraj Kirpalani) was God.

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Post by arjun » 28 Mar 2007

Arjun asked to see an original copy, here it is; Here you see clearly "number two soul in the world" Om Radhe, stating that God takes incarnation in all 4 ages, or "passes through the four stages", underlining their belief that Brahma (Dada Lekhraj) was God.
Thanks for uploading the original document.

The obvious reason why she has mentioned God to pass through all the four stages and ages is because she and other BKs of that time believed Dada Lekhraj to be God. The above belief is just opposite to what they preach to the world now.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Re: Om Radhe (Mama) and her letters

Post by fluffy bunny » 28 Mar 2007

John wrote:Mama classes ...

Why has she been almost eradicated from the BK machine and the only Sakar Murlis available are from after her demise ... Conspiracy theorists, on your marks, get set ...
This conspiracy theorists, albeit we have gotten as far as conspiracy proofists, would like to ask ... who was behind Om Radhe? What do we really know about her? I am reading her letters to the government and court regarding the matter when Om Mandli was made an illegal organization, in perpetuity. They are in pretty much perfect, professional English and there is an knowledge of law and legal procedure. I find that hard to marry with a 20/22 year old girl (will check age).

As a further taster of what is yet to come, here a her second letter of 6 April 1942, 3 years later, to Louis Mountbatten, the Viceroy of India, representatives of His Majesty the Emperor King George. (That is not Mike George, by the way, but George VI).

It also goes to prove that they still thought Prajapati Brahma was God, God incarnated in Heaven and that WWII was the last war ... Destruction. It also starts to track the Christ-like Persecution Complex that they seemed to be suffering suggesting that there must have been some Christian influences on the very early Yugya.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 28 Mar 2007

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Post by fluffy bunny » 28 Mar 2007

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11th December 1958

Post by joel » 29 Mar 2007

Abrahma Kumar wrote:11th December 1958

The one Supreme Soul is the only One who takes everyone back and who knows the beginning, the middle and the end of the world. [...] Everything of the whole world is degraded. Even the five elements are degraded. The reformation of everything is now in the hands of the Supreme Soul. Achcha.
Okay, if this class is translated faithfully (and it reads that way, traveler and Supreme Soul sounding distant from the human Chariot, who is not mentioned at all) Mama also adapted to the changes in the BK cosmology. Here is the Supreme Soul doing everything.

It is interesting to see these old documents. I would have felt closer, more fully welcomed and embraced, to have had access to the actual history of the Yagya.

"When and how did this change take place?" ex-l is asking. A reasonable question. Did Shiva really say "Shivoham" the first time, and did Shiva speak to Brahma Baba for a week by possessing, for that time, the body of an uneducated kumari, explaining just how things were?

It would be more of interest if I still believed I would be purified by the practice of soul consciousness and remembrance.

I do believe there is a core of faith and integrity to the group that developed around the spiritual experiences of its members. There is no question that as the BKs developed over time, the growth in membership brought changes in how the group has presented itself. At the beginning it may not have mattered whether it was Shiva or Brahma.

At any rate, it is an unusual business, communicating peace by staring into the eyes of the followers. For those of faith, it is God's power, and the original power of the soul. To others it is hypnotism and manipulation. Those were complaints of the Anti-party right from the beginning. Does it need to be either/or or can life be more complex? What is the constraints of reality, and what are merely the requirements of the process of creating a linguistic-conceptual map?

Research has its own value, independent of whether the discoveries lead to a single unified interpretation. I applaud all the material ex-l and others have assembled here. The site is truly worthy of its name!

BTW, I agree with ex-l that it is questionable whether Mama actually wrote the letters. Most likely it was Brahma, sending them out under her name, which I seem to remember hearing from Seniors. He and they did whatever they judged most politic.

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Post by tinydot » 29 Mar 2007

These Radhe's letters reveal to me some similarities of their original belief and the current concept of God by the Vishnu Party, i.e. God is undergoing different stages. I find some similarities with the teachings of Brahma Kumaris that time and the current basic information the Vishnu Party reveals.

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Post by arjun » 29 Mar 2007

joel wrote:"When and how did this change take place?" ex-l is asking. A reasonable question. Did Shiva really say "Shivoham" the first time, and did Shiva speak to Brahma Baba for a week by possessing, for that time, the body of an uneducated Kumari, explaining just how things were?
ShivBaba (through Brahma Baba) has made observations on the divine visions caused to famous devotees of the path of worship (Bhaktimarg) saying that it is not necessary that the deity whose divine vision has been caused to a particular person also enters into him/her at the same time. So, how can we say with guarantee that when the vision of Vishnu was caused to Dada Lekhraj, Shiva entered into him and uttered Shivoham, Shivoham.

Further, it is said by the BKs themselves that Brahma Baba could not understand the meanings of the divine visions and went to all his gurus in Pakistan and also to the Hindu gurus and scholars at Varanasi to seek clarifications, but could not get any answers. It is also mentioned in the Murlis that he used to draw pictures on the banks of river Ganga at Varanasi without understanding their meanings.

Had Shiv entered into Brahma Baba in the first vision itself and uttered all those shlokas etc. then all the above facts are proved wrong.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by arjun » 29 Mar 2007

ex-l wrote:This conspiracy theorists, albeit we have gotten as far as conspiracy proofists, would like to ask ... who was behind Om Radhe? What do we really know about her? I am reading her letters to the government and court regarding the matter when Om Mandli was made an illegal organization, in perpetuity. They are in pretty much perfect, professional English and there is an knowledge of law and legal procedure. I find that hard to marry with a 20/22 year old girl (will check age).

This is a valid doubt. Neither Brahma Baba nor Mama must have been so fluent in English and Jagdish Bhai might not have entered the scene by then. So, there must have been some brother(s) who was (were) so good at English. One of the Dadas, I suppose!!!

In most probability, all these letters were originally drafted in Hindi and got passed by ShivBaba (through Brahma Baba or through trance messages) and then translated into English by those brothers who were proficient in English.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by bansy » 29 Mar 2007

How does one even get to translate words such as "ferocious baboons" and "self-unrealised Gandhi" on the same page, and have this delivered to the Viceroy.

This is dumbfounding. Yet it was so true at the time. Is there a smiley with jaws dropping ?

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Re: Om Radhe (Mama) and her letters

Post by proy » 29 Mar 2007

John wrote:Mama classes ... Why has she been almost eradicated from the BK machine and the only Sakar Murlis available are from after her demise ... Conspiracy theorists, on your marks, get set ...
Thanks for this piece of information, John. Many, many times I asked BK teachers on what basis the Sakar Murlis that are read in the 5 year cycle were chosen from among all those that were available. Why did they not use them all? I never got a satisfactory answer (Not an uncommon event when asking a BK a question). Now I think we are getting an answer.

Maybe they chose the ones that looked best for what they wanted to achieve. I know the Christian bible was brutally cut and edited also, and for similar reasons. Any Christian scholars correct me if I am wrong, but I believe it was called the Council of Laodicea.

Anyway, the motive was to centralise power and control, and to edit out contradictions and embarrassing references to subjects such as re-incarnation, which the original Christians believed in. This type of revision of religious scriptures is not new, but it will not be so easy to get away with undetected now we have the internet.

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Post by abrahma kumar » 30 Mar 2007

14th December, 1958

The great difference between the task of God and those of religious souls

Om Shanti. We souls are very old. We souls were definitely new at some point. How can the soul be new or old? The world understands that the soul is unique, that it can neither be cut nor burnt, that the soul can never be destroyed in any way because it is immortal. However, we now know from the Supreme Soul that the soul is truly immortal. They burn the body, but the soul has already left it. The soul takes another body according to its karmic actions and then plays its part. It is the soul that experiences everything. The body doesn’t experience anything. It is the soul that experiences everything through the body. Karmic accounts are accumulated by the soul and this is why the soul experiences everything.

If the soul were separate, why should it experience anything? It is the soul that experiences happiness or sorrow. So there must definitely be some dirt on the soul. The soul now experiences sorrow, and so it must definitely have previous experience of complete happiness and peace. At that time souls were new. Now they have become old. There is the dirt of many births on the soul, not just one birth. Whatever sinful actions human beings perform, they have to suffer a lot for them and this suffering cannot be finished in one birth. Whilst accumulating the dirt of many births the soul has now reached the final stage. God has to come to make such tamoguni souls clean and pure. The five evil spirits have brought about this impure stage.

At first the number of souls was very small, and then there was expansion. Whilst coming into a part the soul continued to accumulate dirt. Not all souls can come down together. The tree grows gradually. In the Gita, it is written that the human world is an inverted tree. Why is it inverted? Because its roots are at the top.

All souls come from the incorporeal world and so the root is up there, is it not? All souls are impure. To make them clean and pure is the task of the powerful One. Only He knows about His directions and instructions. What are His directions to bring about salvation? Through which method does He do this? Only He knows that. Human souls have become old whilst playing their part and so how can they purify anyone? Where can they receive that power from? God alone is the Almighty Authority. That Father is also a soul, but He is called the Supreme because He is beyond rebirth. He is immune to action. His pure sanskars are never erased from Him.

When souls take birth and rebirth those sanskars finish. Pure souls come and establish their religion and to sustain it. God comes to take everyone back, and as well as that, He also carries out the establishment of the new world. So His acts are unique. God’s task is His own. Souls and their sanskaras are eternal. You also have to understand how they have to play their part of many births. It isn’t that the soul is merged with the Supreme Soul and that both are the same. Each soul has its own individual sanskaras. Although Christ, Buddha and others are pure souls, they all have their own individual sanskaras and perform their own actions.

So, there is also a difference between the pure souls. Only the Supreme Soul who has this knowledge eternally can give this knowledge to us. Arjuna was also told: By knowing Me alone, you will know everything. You receive the knowledge of everything. So the Supreme Soul is not merged in everyone. His acts are totally unique. Souls cannot merge with other souls and become one soul, so how can souls merge with the Supreme Soul and become one? In Satyug souls are pure and because of their karmic accounts they are in the stage of liberation in life.

At that time they are not impure. Then, when they come to play their part, the impurity of their sanskars accumulates. What are the different sanskars and activities of human beings based on? There are varying degrees within these differences too. Even in their impure stage, souls have their own sanskaras. There is variety in their rajo (middle stage) as well as in their tamo (most degraded) stage. In Satyug, when souls were experiencing liberation in life, there were kings and queens and also subjects. There were all of these. If there weren’t any variety, then all would be kings. Since there are subjects, there is definitely a king as well. If all were kings, there would be no game.

All these deep aspects have to be understood with the intellect. You have to broaden your reasoning. God comes and explains on the basis of experience and reasoning. You have to think about what is right and what is wrong. People say: Why did God create such a game? Is it the Father’s game to make the children unhappy? Baba says: There was a variety in the game that I created, I created a game of happiness, But human beings then forgot Me and forgot themselves and created the suffering of karma for themselves. I liberated you from such suffering of karma and this is why I am remembered as the Remover of Sorrow and the Bestower of Happiness. This is something to be understood.

Those who come to listen to knowledge have to be regular because the study gets deeper and deeper day by day. You may have heard the same thing ten times, but one day it will penetrate your intellect. Only when you study regularly are you able to imbibe completely. You have to study regularly in order to attain even a perishable status. This is also study and it is only for a short time. It isn’t that the throne of the gurus continues from time immemorial. No, the Supreme Soul says: I alone am the Satguru. I alone grant salvation. Salvation is said to be the reward. Degradation cannot be called the reward. By simply just saying, “It is true, it is true”, neither has there been benefit nor will there be benefit.

You have to understand everything with reasoning. The destination is very high. You have to conquer the vices completely, and only then will you become complete. You have to battle with the vices. If you are not able to do anything, just remain peaceful. Those who create obstacles in others’ peace have been called devils by God in the previous Kalpa. They burn themselves. They are devils anyway. They drink the nectar of knowledge and then turn away and so they are called Bhasmasur (the devil who burnt himself). So you should not drink the nectar of knowledge but then become Bhasmasur.

Your duty is to warn others. If you become bad, to what extent will you become bad? And if you become good, to what extent will you become good? There are stages even in being bad: sato, rajo and tamo. You should not get totally crushed. You may become bad that is, you may lose your status, but do not become completely like Bhasmasur. If you are not able to continue here, at least do not create obstacles for others. Whatever anyone does is only for their own self.

Obstacles would add even greater strength to true effort-makers. It is the Father’s duty to explain to the worthy and the unworthy children. Even the unworthy children are cautioned: You are destroying your status for nothing. Those who want to will create their own status. Those who destroy something will only destroy it for themselves. Therefore you should think about this. Achcha.

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Post by john » 01 Apr 2007

Abrahma Kumar wrote:14th December, 1958

The great difference between the task of God and those of religious souls
Where is this from, is it a Mama class?

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Post by abrahma kumar » 01 Apr 2007

John wrote:Where is this from, is it a Mama class?
Yes, John.

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