No touching if you want to be an Angel

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avyakt7
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No touching if you want to be an Angel

Post by avyakt7 » 02 Oct 2010

As I was listening to Murli of (6/22/10), hearing the advice "not to touch each other specially in relationship of a husband and wife," made myself wonder about the true context of it.

Do not know what was going at the Yagya at that point in time, but I can see that touchiness could become an “out of hand” problem if maturity and lack of spiritual inculcation are missing in a soul.

According to the Drama, yesterday a BK close friend of mine shared the following with me, I will call him BK Swan. He said : “ My ex-wife came to visit me. We had a friendly chat and I told her that I appreciated her friendship. I told her that sometimes BK life in the West could be a lonely experience for a brother in a world of sisters and that I appreciated that she was there to help me whenever I needed someone unconditionally. After that, she was happy to hear that and we gave each other a very deep hug full with feelings. She left my place happy and I was content as well.”

I thought, that is an “interesting touch”. Specially since the background of that brother was a “typical” western case: He was married “enjoying life“. He became unhappy. He met Baba. Became happy. The wife didn’t believe in Baba. In Baba’s words, he became the “swan” and she was the “stork”. He couldn’t wait for her to ask him to be divorced and be free form that “bondage” since he couldn’t ask for it. A BK does not “initiate a divorce.” The forces of Drama, made that “wish” to be true. That BK experienced a lot of karmic accounts as a return due to that “misunderstanding of Baba’s knowledge”. He gave suffering to his ex-wife. He didn’t have the tact to deal with that issue, but in his mind, he was doing the “right thing”: To be engaged in what he understood as “Baba’s service” and to neglect his wife. No more eating out. No more intimate life. No more mingling with relatives, “lokiks”…No compromise. It is “my way or the highway”....He failed to communicate his needs and to work things out without breaking his BK life style. That is a “real” art.

Thinking about this, I see that Indian culture is quite different. The “stork” and the “swan” will put up with each other due to the fear of what “others will say”. Divorce is not usually an answer. In the West, on the other hand; to divorce someone is as simple as buying a bicycle.

In my experience I have learned that “BK culture” is neither Indian culture nor Western traditions. It is the culture of acceptance of each others ways of doing and understanding things. It is the culture of being “unlimited”.

I have observed with amazement how a brother in India touches and even caresses another brother… how close they can become and even walk together holding hands. In the West, that is considered homosexuality and depending of who you ask to, you will find out about people’s prejudices.

Culturally speaking to see “brothers in one side and sisters in another” is another Indian “normal” way of mingling. As a BK we should wonder if anyone can become soul conscious by considering our gender as the important tool to relate with others.

From the organization stand point, I see this need to separate as a tool to manage certain problem or issues that may arise. However, it is not “fool proof”. From the individual stand point, specially if not living in a center; we need to learn to mingle with everyone and to go beyond. I recall one Sakar Murli this year (it was read on a Saturday) where Baba mentioned that if you “live outside” you can progress faster…. The likelihood of falling is greater as well, however.

To be in this unlimited culture is to honestly see, where do I fit in and if I am ready to move to the next level without judging others. Knowledge is not “black or white”. Experience will show us all the different shadows and colors. We need to learn to apply knowledge according to the circumstance, according to time.

I sincerely hope that BK Swan, will not stop giving her ex-wife a hug because he heard this Murli today. That advice does not apply to him. To give unnecessary suffering to someone is not a Godly law…. And to give a hug full of feelings to someone is not a sin, either.

We mature in life when we learn to see the “spirit” of the law and not to follow blindly the “dualistic”, “black or white” words behind it.

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Re: No touching if you want to be an Angel

Post by arjun » 03 Oct 2010

Om Shanti. I don't think BK/PBK knowledge prohibits any kind of physical touch between a husband and a wife. I think they can touch each other provided it is not with any lustful feeling. And in today's world it is not at all possible for a BK/PBK couple to completely avoid touching each other. Suppose they are travelling by a two wheeler, the wife will have to touch the husband in case they are travelling by a motorcycle. Similarly, if they are crossing a busy road, they can hold each other's hand.
OGS,
Arjun

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Re: No touching if you want to be an Angel

Post by avyakt7 » 03 Oct 2010

and what about if a brother gives a hug to a sister? ( non married) Is that "allowed" in the BK/PBK? and why?

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Re: No touching if you want to be an Angel

Post by arjun » 04 Oct 2010

Om Shanti. As far as I know a brother is not allowed to hug a sister either in BKs or PBKs. In case of PBKs, the brothers cannot even touch the sisters. They think that brothers are more sinful than the sisters and hence touching may lead to transfer of lustful vibrations.

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Re: No touching if you want to be an Angel

Post by avyakt7 » 04 Oct 2010

Om Shanti.
is not that body consciousness? or is it more an Indian tradition? You know, it is not only Brahma Kumaris and PBKs who "believe" in that way... I can mention several other Indian religious groups as well. I find that amazing on how we can think that we can be able to experience "soul consciousness" through being "body," "gender" conscious...

As far as I am concerned, I became a massage therapist after knowing Baba. My clients are 95% females, "sisters". I guess, perhaps I am not being "allowed to do so"...but paradoxically, it has helped me to recognize and understand lust and to be at peace with myself and with others. It has helped me to understand the importance of feelings and vibrations. Of course, it is "not like going to your auntie's home" and it is not for everyone to try...but when I see repression, suppression and fear of touching someone; I just wonder if those are really the "methods" to go ahead spiritually speaking. I understood that my "method" is not for everyone. Likewise, "suppression" is not for me.
Celibacy is a BK Maryadas (that is what my picture of the Brahmin principles states.) Not to touch someone is not.

Are pure feelings supposed to be expressed with the same gender only? Is touch such a "dirty thing"? It always come down to our feelings, thoughts and vibrations.. whether we touch someone or not.

Are brothers "dirtier" than sisters? really? The number 1 soul was in a male body.. same for the PBKs.. a "male" body is ahead.


Anyways, I thought I just will share my experience. "Don't try this at home...." :D

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Re: No touching if you want to be an Angel

Post by nivi » 04 Oct 2010

According to knowledge "purity" is a lot deeper then simply following celibacy. I have had this discussion with a few Gyani souls in the past which has made me churn more deeply into this matter. When Murli talks about pure/impure it is to be understood in the unlimited sense(behad) for sure.
For example according to Pbk's the body that Shiv enter is considered to be number 1 impure, which gets transformed into number 1 pure. That's why Shiv is also known as Patit_Pavan. He is here to transform the 'impure ones to pure' . In fact that's the main task of Shiv is to purify the impure ones.
So when we look at Baba (Pbk) how is he considered impure especially since he never got married, never had any physical relation with woman etc.? We can see many, many extremely lustful people who have multiple physical relations, commit crimes against women, keep many wife/ partners outside of the Bk/Pbk community.. On the surface these people are obviously impure, but amongst all 6 or 7 billion how is that the body that Shiv enters is considered the most impure??
So is it possible to be impure in mind and not necessarily in body??

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Re: No touching if you want to be an Angel

Post by avyakt7 » 05 Oct 2010

Certainly celibacy is more than just the physical aspect. As a matter of fact, the thoughts are before the physical and before the thoughts, are our feelings. When feelings are not pure things trickle down form there; however, this is like a circle; since the physical affects the feelings and thoughts, etc. That is why Baba speaks of changing our vision to change our attitude which creates an impact.
Sakar Murlis refer to impurity because we have been born through "vice." This is the "original sin" in Christianity. The topic of Shiva "entering someone" I feel, needs to be in a different thread, which I will open for those who would like to participate.

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Re: No touching if you want to be an Angel

Post by arjun » 07 Oct 2010

is not that body consciousness? or is it more an Indian tradition? You know, it is not only Brahma Kumaris and PBKs who "believe" in that way... I can mention several other Indian religious groups as well. I find that amazing on how we can think that we can be able to experience "soul consciousness" through being "body," "gender" conscious...
I agree it is more an Indian tradition. Not just among BKs and PBKs, but even among Indians in general, brothers and sisters do not generally hug each other once they grow up and especially after they get married. Even the fathers generally do not hug their daughters once they are grown up. Fathers and elders are generally allowed only to touch the head of their daughters to give their blessings. Touching any other part of a woman's body is considered a sign of impurity. Even a handshake between an unrelated male and female is not permitted although in recent years highly educated modern women working in private establishments do not mind shaking hands with men. Similarly, college going girls in some metropolitan cities of India do not feel so shy or hesitant.

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Re: No touching if you want to be an Angel

Post by avyakt7 » 07 Oct 2010

Thank you for that information, Arjun. Then, it is important to "see" things from different perspectives in order ti understand different backgrounds and traditions. If someone wants to behave in a "non touching" way, it should be respected as much as someone who is very comfortable with it. The issue is the "vice" and no whether there is touching or not.

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Re: No touching if you want to be an Angel

Post by arjun » 10 Oct 2010

The issue is the "vice" and no whether there is touching or not.
I agree.

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Re: No touching if you want to be an Angel

Post by howiemac » 29 Oct 2010

I remember seeing (at Global Retreat Centre in Oxford) several old photographs on the walls showing Brahma Baba and sisters hugging each other, I think when meeting or saying farewell. There are also numerous stories of teenage sisters sitting literally on his lap in the very early days before the "dirty old man" scandal was rigged by the anti-party....

Anyway I agree with Avyakt7 that it is "amazing on how we can think that we can be able to experience "soul consciousness" through being "body," "gender" conscious..."

It seems clear that in the early days of the Yagya there was not such a "hands off" attitude, which is more remarkable given what Arjun is saying about Indian culture.

I think all concerned should follow the good example of Brahma Baba, as the Murli's frequently advise ;-)

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Re: No touching if you want to be an Angel

Post by avyakt7 » 29 Oct 2010

The issue is that there are many souls who may "hide a wolf" and show a facade of an innocent lamb. Likewise, on the female side is the "spider woman" ready to grab her innocent victim under the web of attachment and under the label of "pure attachment."

Physical touch is the first step usually to consent a "go ahead" in their personal space. It is a sign of trust at some level. The issue with gender separation is that automatically creates a space of distance and segregation, which Indians have been able to survive for so long. It is "normal" for them. Part of their upbringing. In soul consciousness however, whether someone is with a male or a female it shouldn't matter; thus someone who is really soul conscious should be able to acknowledge Indian and western ways of doing things and feel comfortable with both. That person will feel comfortable with touch or without it as once we acknowledge that we are energy in essence, there are other ways of showing affection and pure feelings than through touch. However, many of us are not still completely there.

From the stand point of an organization, it is easier to "draw a line" and say "do not touch another gender." Black and white policies work pretty good to make differences and to manage people better but the "individual" is out and the policy is "in." This is true in all organizations.

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